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1
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Drooler (Disabled)
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While I believe in freedom of speech, I probably don't "believe" in anything in absolutist terms. There's always a line that shouldn't be crossed. Max Hardcore's line was what a jury in central FL found him guilty of in terms of the "community standards" there.
Porn producers have to be very careful in the US where they produce their material, and so they should be well-informed of the risks through legal counsel. If you take the risk, you might wind up paying for it, and then you have to take personal responsibility for it.
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05-10-09 02:11am
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2
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james4096 (Suspended)
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I really don't know the facts of the case, was he doing anything that anybody else wasn't doing? I've never watched his videos, but I've heard they were pretty extreme.
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05-10-09 02:14am
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3
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lk2fireone (0)
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I've never seen any of his videos, and would not want to. They are outside of my personal taste.
However, I don't believe even extreme porn should be illegal, unless there it violates specific areas, such as child porn or snuff films. If the porn is merely kinky, even tho I might not appreciate it or want to view it, it should not be illegal.
Personally, I've always thought community standards is a dangerous/slippery defense. Just like being a work of cultural value (I don't remember what the specific term is that was used to decide if a work has value and is therefore not porn). Those are the wrong standards to apply.
My opinion is that unless Max Hardcore abused his models against their will, he did not commit a crime. If the models agreed to be abused, then it was no crime because they agreed to the performance and any abuse (for pay). If there was rape, that is illegal, but if the models agreed to the sex and the kinky style of sex, that is not rape, and it is not illegal.
I also don't believe prostitution should be illegal.
There are real crimes against people that should be illegal, but throwing somebody in jail because you don't like the porn he produces is really stupid and a waste of community resources. The same for prostitution. If two or more people want to have sex, unless there is some sort of violent crime involved, that should not be illegal. Whether you pay for the sex or not.
Edit: I am not saying child porn should be legal. I am not saying sex with a child should be legal. I am talking/writing about sex between consenting adults.
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05-10-09 05:21am
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4
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kkman112 (0)
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I agree with lk2fireone. Generally, if Max H did do things that the model's were not aware of / did not consent to then I think he should be in jail, but there should not be laws against extreme porn. If the models know what is involved and consent to the content, then it should be up to model to approve. Similarly, the user watching has the right not to watch if they feel it is too extreme, but should not prevent it from being on the market just because they think no one should see it. Also, as lk2fireone says, that does not include underage content.
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05-10-09 07:56am
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5
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PinkPanther (0)
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The "community standards" argument is a farce. There were people on the jury that were very upset that they felt they had no choice but to vote the way they did, either because they felt rail-roaded by the judge, or rail-roaded by the other members of the jury. The case was all based on the material having been sent to a place where Max and his company did not send the material to. That was confirmed by the distributor that DID send the material to - and the distributor wouldn't have sent the material if the postal inspector didn't order the material and request that the material be sent there. In my opinion, if anyone violated "community standards", it was the postal inspector, who had more of a basis to understand the "community standards" than anyone else involved here - so if anybody should have been jailed, I would vote for the postal inspector.
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05-10-09 08:35am
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6
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Drooler (Disabled)
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REPLY TO #5 - PinkPanther :
I actually have my plate of crow to eat here. Yum-yum. After doing some internet searching with the keywords "max hardcore postal inspector," I've decided that no, Max Hardcore should not be in jail.
An undercover postal inspector ordered five DVDs of Max Hardcore material online and had them sent to a Tampa, FL postal box. That is what set things in motion for the obscenity charges, trial, and conviction. Max Hardcore was set up.
And about community standards, in this case it's a tenuous argument at best because Tampa, FL is, for thing, a city where the annual Night Moves Porn Star Caravan and Night Moves Adult Entertainment Awards Show has been held. Porn stars appear at various Tampa area clubs.
So the whole thing smells strongly of abuse of authority.
The crow I'm eating doesn't smell that good, either.
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05-10-09 09:52am
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7
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pat362 (0)
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I picked no because the crime he was charged for and convicted is not abuse of femaler performers, but in fact shipping obscene(their view) material to Florida.
When Max first appeared on the porn scene sometime in the early 90's. He made some truly great series (anal sex as the main theme). That's how I discovered him, and when I became a fan.
At some point the stuff he made became more gross and discusting than actually hot. That said as much as people may dislike his recent stuff. Many of the things he created, and I personnaly do not enjoy, have appeared in many other directors movies. Just take a look at the drooling, gagging, spitting blowjob for one. It was rare before Max, but how many movies have them today.
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05-10-09 10:54am
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8
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GCode (0)
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I guess I'm one of the poor saps that has no idea anything about this case or even who Max Hardcore is :( Guess I'll have to look up details because it seems to be interesting from the responses so far. So until then, I'm in the 'who is max hardcore' category.
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05-10-09 01:06pm
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9
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Colm4 (0)
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I agree, his first movies were great and inspired many directors to go that way.
However he just went too far in following his own fantasies. Covering the girls with make-up, pooring water in their nose so they couldn't breath. Also the fact he was the only guy in ALL his films didn't help much.
I bought one of his later movies some time ago (out of curiousity), but threw it away not long after. It just looked all so ridiculous and didn't have much to do with porn at all.
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05-10-09 03:24pm
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10
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Monahan (0)
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Simple. If the performers are over 18, are doing whatever they are doing voluntarily and with full and open mutual consent, no one is getting hurt and whatever they are doing is not being done in public where people who don't want to see it or who shouldn't see it can't see it, then have at it.
That's what I feel about prostitution as well. If Carmella Bing gets $1,000 to fuck someone in front of a camera and hets $1,000 to fuck some one in private in some hotel room, why is one legal and the other not?
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05-10-09 04:13pm
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11
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PinkPanther (0)
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What's interesting about the "his first movies were great, then he went south" comments is that I've read more comments about him being abusive by performers that were in his earliest stuff - like Stephanie Swift - than by performers that were in his later stuff. Performers who did other rough stuff and complained bitterly about how their well-being had been dis-regarded by those other porn producers and performers, said that Max treated them well and made sure that they were OK.
What's on-screen definitely doesn't tell the full story.
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05-10-09 05:56pm
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12
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turboshaft (0)
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REPLY TO #3 - lk2fireone :
"Community standards" can be an extremely dangerous defense, and it can also be blamed for making a lot of American porn only come from one or two places in the entire country (southern Florida being one of them).
These sacred "standards" -- if that even means anything -- could vary greatly from community to community, and could apply to all sorts of material in porn. What if interracial is frowned upon? How about MILF porn, or anything that involves models that vary greatly in age? Hell, why not ban material if the producers don't use energy efficient lighting or recycle properly? If anything might possibly offend anyone at anytime for any reason whatsoever just make it illegal!
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05-10-09 07:58pm
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13
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asmith12 (0)
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If no one have been REALLY abused, then it was just a blatant attack on free speech, nothing less. Who can say what one of thousands of communities will consider as "obscene" tomorrow? Maybe some community will consider anything gay (not sex, but even mentioning that there are gay people) as obscene and unacceptable? Or maybe some community will consider "anything which doesn't show certain religious practice" as unacceptable and obscene? Ok, in reality it isn't that bad (yet), but I'm afraid it still can become a beginning of a slippery road towards prohibiting speech just because some community doesn't like this kind of speech.
Another thing which outrages me is jail term. Max Hardcore got 4 years in jail. 4 years just because somebody didn't like the content he made. It is the same one can get for manslaughter. Isn't it obvious that even comparing these two things is ridiculous and outrageous?
If somebody doesn't like his videos (personally I don't), it is perfectly ok to write that they're disgusting (which they IMHO are), it is ok to call for sites like PU to remove Max from their listings, but sending a guy to jail just because you disagree with him? Imagine that you're arguing with somebody, and after your next phrase your opponent calls for police and you and up in jail for years, just because what you've said violates some "community standards". Ouch.
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05-10-09 10:25pm
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14
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Jay G (Disabled)
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REPLY TO #12 - turboshaft :
"Community Standards" means that those who stage the Miss America Contest should be jailed if any of the material gets to a Muslim nation that forbids viewing of a woman's ankles, let alone a bare stomach. Such a rule undermines all freedom everywhere if allowed to stand.
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05-11-09 03:58am
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15
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RagingBuddhist (Disabled)
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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Evelyn Beatrice Hall
As much as his videos disgust me, there was no crime.as long as everything was consentual. So he shouldn't be in jail. Personally, I'd like to see him out in public where people can openly harrass his sick ass wherever he goes. And, even though it goes against my long-held belief of "different strokes for different folks", I think anyone who actually enjoys his latest work should seek professional psychological help.
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05-11-09 04:07am
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16
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james4096 (Suspended)
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After reading what everyone here has said and looking for more info on the case I am changing my answer from undecided to no.
If he abused the models it goes without saying that he should face the law. The models consent to doing a the film and they may know what is going to happen in the scene, but sometime things get out of hand or the girl didn't realize how physically painful or emotionally traumatizing these extreme scenes can be.
There was a movie years ago called Rough Sex 2, which was not Max Hardcore film, that featured one of my favorite girls, Regan Starr. I guess things got too extreme and she couldn't take the hitting, choking, spitting and abuse anymore and had to stop filming. They left it in the movie with a message at the end of where the scene stopped explaining what happened. She probably ended up leaving the industry because of this.
I guess you can film an assault and nothing happens, but if a few people in florida find content objectionable you can end up behind bars for years.
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05-11-09 10:17am
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17
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Wittyguy (0)
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This one got some treatment in the forum if you want to read more about it: https://www.pornusers.com/forum/forum_th...ad.html?threadid=119.
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05-11-09 11:37am
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18
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PinkPanther (0)
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REPLY TO #16 - james4096 :
With Regan Starr, it was not just a matter of things getting too extreme, it was a matter of the film-maker & male performer having no care about her well-being as far as she was concerned, which is, in the end, the only thing that matters. She was the performer who I referred to in an earlier post in this thread that, at the same time that she was exposing the assholes that abused her in Rough Sex 2 with Max, who she had done rough scenes with, but who she felt had always shown respect for her well-being during the making of those scenes.
In all consensual rough sex there are ethical standards about safe words, signals and other things so that the people engaged in the rough play feel protected by their partners - Regan Starr was not being protected by the shit-heads that made that Rough Sex vid, as far as she was concerned. She was being abused - and that's just bull-shit - and ought to be eligible to be criminally prosecuted.
Max doing his rough fantasies with consenting performers and sold to consenting adults should not be criminally prosecuted. Shit, John Stagliano's on trial - and the performers in John's stuff look positively gleeful much of the time.
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05-11-09 09:25pm
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19
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monty2222 (0)
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Haven't seen any of his videos and judging from the descriptions I've read here at PU, it's probably best if it stays that way. That aside, he shouldn't be in jail if he hasn't abused any of the models in his videos.
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05-18-09 11:08am
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