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| Porn Users Forum » Switzerland Banning Minarets |
| 1-25 of 25 Posts | Page 1 |
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| 12-08-09 09:45am - 5493 days | Original Post - #1 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
Switzerland Banning Minarets Swiss Ban Building of Minarets on Mosques I am sure most of us have heard about this, especially our European members. I know it's off topic, but we have discussed religion here before (a little, but still discussed it) and I was wondering what people's thoughts were. Regular members are probably aware of my overall distaste for religion, but I have an even bigger distaste for limits on civil rights, like religious freedom -- and I don't just mean freedom from religion for people like me, but freedom for others to worship as well. Having said that, I usually think of western Europe as a very progressive and liberal part of the world, arguably made up of some of the freest countries on earth. I also understand immigration, particularly from Muslim countries, is a big issue; when I was living in Germany a few years ago there were debates over the growing Turkish population there, but people were still tolerant overall. Even though Switzerland is neutral, given the Europe's history in the last century it seems this would have not passed, but it did, so what's next? "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 12-08-09 10:32am - 5493 days | #2 | |
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Denner (0)
Active User  Posts: 1,217 Registered: Mar 03, '07 Location: Denmark |
I think this is fair and ok - the swiss - and A LOT of other europeans do not want towns filled up with Mosques with MINARETS. What is a Minaret? - a tower filled with loudspeakers where a religion (whatever kind, I do not care) is blasted out through the entire town. IT's NOT a matter of freedom of speech or religion - if you want to practice your religion - do NOT press it down on others in this aggressive way. AND BTW: The reason some religious fanatics in the old days made those socalled Minarettes was to gain military power and rule over other people...according to history... "I don't drink anymore - I freeze it, and eat it like a popcicle" | |
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| 12-08-09 12:22pm - 5493 days | #3 | |
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WeeWillyWinky (0)
Active User  Posts: 243 Registered: Jun 03, '07 Location: Havasu City, AZ USA |
The article linked to says that none of the minarets in Switzerland "conduct the call to prayer", so it doesn't sound like the loudspeaker thing is an issue here. If I've misunderstood and it is an issue, then I agree with Denner. Theologically speaking, Islam is no whackier than Christianity, though its more zealous adherents might be a tad more dangerous, at this point in time; but given enough time (and enough exposure to morons like Kirk Cameron), I would not put any craziness past some of the Christians in my own country. You know what I hate the most about selfish people? It's that they don't think enough about MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!! | |
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| 12-08-09 12:59pm - 5493 days | #4 | |
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Wittyguy (0)
Active User  Posts: 1,138 Registered: Feb 04, '08 Location: Left Coast, USA |
x Edited on Apr 20, 2023, 01:40pm | |
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| 12-08-09 03:48pm - 5492 days | #5 | |
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jd1961 (0)
Active User  Posts: 296 Registered: Jun 07, '07 |
Is it possible to enjoy porn and not be an anti-religion bigot? | |
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| 12-08-09 06:57pm - 5492 days | #6 | |
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WeeWillyWinky (0)
Active User Posts: 243 Registered: Jun 03, '07 Location: Havasu City, AZ USA |
I don't care for being called a bigot. Religious fanatics threaten the rights and security of everyone on the planet. This includes Christian fanatics. You know what I hate the most about selfish people? It's that they don't think enough about MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!! Edited on Dec 08, 2009, 07:00pm | |
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| 12-08-09 09:09pm - 5492 days | #7 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
I don't really think he is being a bigot, certainly no more than a deeply religious person could be considered, say, an anti-porn bigot. In fact I know there are some religious members here at PU, maybe only a small percentage of the overall membership, but I would assume they are here because they love porn, and I doubt they are anti-religious. "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 12-08-09 11:27pm - 5492 days | #8 | |
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Belthazar (0)
Active User Posts: 27 Registered: Jan 13, '07 Location: Prague |
This referendum was about minarets, but much more it was about Islam. People in EU are sick of neverending complaints from Muslims and their demands. It is interesting that we dont have problems with Hindu, Buddhists or Jews. Analysts say that majority of women woted NO, just to how their opposition against the way how Islam treats women. Women: Different hardware, same software | |
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| 12-09-09 03:31am - 5492 days | #9 | |
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monty2222 (0)
Active User  Posts: 49 Registered: Feb 20, '09 Location: Denmark |
Although I never go to church, very rarely pray and isn't a member of any church, I somehow can't help but "believe". And I'm an active member here, so obviously the answer to your question is yes. | |
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| 12-09-09 04:13am - 5492 days | #10 | |
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nostromo (0)
Active User Posts: 131 Registered: Sep 22, '07 Location: madrid/spain |
Well, we spaniards legalized gay marriage four years ago. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...AR2005063000245.html . Bear in mind that we are regarded as a very reactionary country by protestant nations, i fail to see why, but that's the truth. When i attended sunday school -in deference to the family that hosted me, extremely kind and generous people i'd like to add- many years ago in the USA, the pastor's belligerence towards the institution of confession surprised me, and although i'm an atheist and an impious person it really annoyed me. Historian Arthur Meier Schlesinger, Sr. once characterized prejudice against Catholics as "the deepest bias in the history of the American people". So i think that the USA is at fault in this regard too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Cathol...in_the_United_States Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. H.L. Mencken. | |
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| 12-09-09 04:13am - 5492 days | #11 | |
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RagingBuddhist (0)
Disabled User  Posts: 893 Registered: Jan 23, '07 |
Well... some do. Part of the reason I have the nick I do is because of my family. I was raised in a religiously divided family and, from the time I was a child, all I saw were the two sides fighting. I started questioning the validity of religion, especially Western religion, at a very early age. So, I left their dogma, in favor of more peaceful pursuits. And they think I'm the one who's crazy! I have to give kudos to the Swiss for not bowing to the demands of the Muslims. The United States has been killing itself for years because everything has to be "politically correct". Fuck that! I'm tired of people hiding behind some convenient label like religion to further their hidden agendas. Sarcasm is a body's natural defense against stupidity. | |
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| 12-09-09 04:14am - 5492 days | #12 | |
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Drooler (0)
Disabled User  Posts: 1,831 Registered: Mar 11, '07 Location: USA |
The main problem with the Swiss referendum banning minarets is the message that gets sent to the Moslem community: you are a minority and a rather small majority of the overall community (about 57%) can oppress elements of your religious practice. And this is in a larger context, of which Moslems are keenly aware and sensitive, of Europe, where, for example wearing hijab in public schools in France has been banned for the past ten years. So it's just one more insult that adds to the injury and deepens the divide between communities. You might argue that nonetheless, it's the result of democracy, and Swiss direct democracy is something that I've marveled at in the past. We don't have it nearly as much in the US. But what we do have is a constitution that states that no law be passed with respect to the establishment of a religion, and we've had no law in the works that at least I've been aware of that attempts to undermine that. Where I am, you see women in hajib every day, and it's simply accepted. I've yet to live anywhere near a mosque that has a minaret for the call to prayer, but I wouldn't feel that hearing the announcement a few times per day would be any more of an imposition than any other form of sound waves flowing through space, be they police sirens or loud motorcycles or the neighbors next door who occasionally scream at other. I remember that Dick Cheney said that democracy is the antidote to terrorism. It might be worthwhile to remember, for example, Oklahoma City, and that platitudes are the antidote the critical thinking. I wanted something new, so I left England for New England. | |
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| 12-09-09 06:24am - 5492 days | #13 | |
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Denner (0)
Active User Posts: 1,217 Registered: Mar 03, '07 Location: Denmark |
Sorry that this has turned into a discussion about religion which the first deal with the minarets in Switzerland is not. It's about politics and politics/culture.. and also about Islam which is not a religion - the muslim-religion is certainly not the same as Islam. But the minarets are directly conected to Islam - according to some professor in religion here in Europe (he may be wrong, I do not know) BUT there's a big difference at the moment of how Islam is looked upon in US and most of Europe - you see it in the media all the time and apprently reflected here among some fellow US PUs. Europe has vast problems with imigration from especially the Middle East - and Africa (funny, from there it's also mostly Islam-oriented countries. US has vast problem with imigration from Mexico and some other countries south of it's border - and - of course nobody blames the chatolic religion (exept the biggots). Or blames the chatolic church for the crime-problems. Nobody in Denmark - and most in of the european countries, I guess - has any problem with the muslim religion and the muslim imigrants in general. And religion is a personal matter which all democracies defends. But fanatics islamism is quite different - here you can talk about racism and biggotry - and all democracies got a right and a duty to defend themselves. We have a large jewish population in Denmark - and a lot here are really concerned - most are staying put, because they lived here for several generations and was saved from the nazi-occupation of Denmark, but some have imigrated to different countries like Austraila, USA and of course Israel. THEY are - again victims of - this time daily violence from arab youth-gangs BECAUSE they are jewish - and of biggotry and racisme - but this time it's not the nazis.... btw: http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/3964 "I don't drink anymore - I freeze it, and eat it like a popcicle" Edited on Dec 09, 2009, 06:57am | |
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| 12-09-09 07:08am - 5492 days | #14 | |
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nostromo (0)
Active User Posts: 131 Registered: Sep 22, '07 Location: madrid/spain |
My take is that muslims, for the most part, don't like the advances of secularism in Europe at all. Atheists and agnostics abound in Europe, we are becoming a Godless continent, i believe that muslims find this rather unsettling. On the other hand, president's Sarkozy recent editorial illustrates Turboshaft's point very well: http://www.adetocqueville.com/200912081214.nb8celq19808.htm President Nicolas Sarkozy warned French believers to refrain from religious "ostentation and provocation" on Tuesday after the Swiss vote to ban minarets stoked debate about Islam in France. The president made the statement in an opinion piece in Le Monde daily,wading into an increasingly tense debate over national identity that has zeroed in on immigration fears in France, home to Europe's largest Muslim minority. "Christians, Jews, Muslims, all believers regardless of their faith, must refrain from ostentation and provocation and ... practice their religion in humble discretion," wrote Sarkozy. "Anything that could appear as a challenge" to France's Christian roots and republican values would lead to "failure" in efforts to promote a form of moderate Islam in France, he warned. Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. H.L. Mencken. | |
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| 12-09-09 02:27pm - 5492 days | #15 | ||
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
There are plenty of people in the U.S. (mostly in the religious right) that would argue the same thing, and frequently cite this as why America is 'better.' Personally it's why I think Europe is more advanced than the U.S. (though not necessarily better or worse).
I never thought Sarkozy would ever right something that would illustrate a point I made. I do think he has an attractive wife though! But seriously he makes a good point that people should be a little more tolerant and not just hop on the fear bandwagon the first chance they get. I also love how the article says "France has sought to reaffirm its staunchly secular tradition which sees religion as a strictly private affair." That sounds like paradise compared to what we have here in the U.S., where having 'morals and values' translates to 'Are you a good god-fearing American like the rest of us, or are you one of those commie atheist types?' Seriously, could anyone realistically expect to run for higher office in America -- say for U.S. senate or president -- with a very private, moderate religious background, or even no religion (blasphemy!) at all? "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | ||
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| 12-09-09 10:05pm - 5491 days | #16 | |
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WeeWillyWinky (0)
Active User Posts: 243 Registered: Jun 03, '07 Location: Havasu City, AZ USA |
You know, it hurts being called a bigot, especially since I really dislike bigots of every stripe, but instead of posting something I just took an hour writing, I'm gonna do the more decent thing and just own up. My comments were harsh and calling Kirk Cameron a moron was definitely out of line. Ad homs are stupid and have no place in serious discourse, so I apologize. I will say that it is awfully tough being an out-of-the-closet atheist in the US of A currently, and I have intimate experience with the kind of thing turboshaft talks about in his last post. Many people do not understand what atheism is, and this can be extremely frustrating. As an atheist, I'm a member of a small but growing minority which is very often on the receiving end of Bigotry with a capital B. For the sake of clarity, I was refering to religious zealots and fanatics, who are very real and out in force in the world, and not to religious people in general, who are by and large very decent and not a threat to anyone. I respect a person's right to believe whatever they want, but this right does not equal the privilege of forcing those beliefs on another person. And if an individual holds strong beliefs of any kind and expects them to be taken seriously, then they ought to make an effort to understand exactly what it is that they claim to believe. I interact with people every day who claim to be Christians who don't understand a thing about it, and who simply absorb their views from others because they feel it's the right thing to do. I have no quarrel with people of faith who truly grasp what it is they have faith in and try to live their lives accordingly. All that being said, I humbly accept that my intitial comments in this thread were uncalled for were too quickly hammered out. That kind of thing doesn't do much good. You know what I hate the most about selfish people? It's that they don't think enough about MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!! | |
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| 12-10-09 01:08am - 5491 days | #17 | |
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Colm4 (0)
Active User  Posts: 117 Registered: Sep 22, '07 Location: Holland |
Here in Holland, the Islam is in very big debate. We have many problems with it. For example crime; Over 50% of all muslims here has come in contact with the police. There are actually over a million muslim people in our small country and our capital Amsterdam for example is now made up of 50% foreign people. But also the strickt rules of islam, like covering women up, scares many here a lot. A new political party (PVV) who is very against the Islam, has become very popular here. If there were elections now, they would become the biggest party of our government. To go back to Switzerland though, this ban on minarets could never have passed in any other European country; Switzerland is not part of the EU and is not restricted to many European rules. | |
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| 12-10-09 03:20am - 5491 days | #18 | |
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nostromo (0)
Active User Posts: 131 Registered: Sep 22, '07 Location: madrid/spain |
Not to mention the killing of Theo Van Gogh by a muslim fanatic due to his stance on muslim violence against women. Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. H.L. Mencken. | |
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| 12-10-09 05:58am - 5491 days | #19 | |
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Denner (0)
Active User Posts: 1,217 Registered: Mar 03, '07 Location: Denmark |
As this is an off-topic and a VERY sensitive matter - almost like discussions of politics at a family-reunion - I have an urge to drop out - and will so. But still, I'll just second these latest inputs by WWW: Man, your NOT a bigot... - and to Colm4 and nostromo - well spoken... "I don't drink anymore - I freeze it, and eat it like a popcicle" | |
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| 12-10-09 01:32pm - 5491 days | #20 | |
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Wittyguy (0)
Active User Posts: 1,138 Registered: Feb 04, '08 Location: Left Coast, USA |
x Edited on Apr 20, 2023, 01:40pm | |
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| 12-10-09 02:36pm - 5491 days | #21 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
Man, I should have known starting this thread would have opened up a whole can of worms... But considering how civil the discussion has gone I think it just proves how unique PU is in its members actually being tolerant of others (except Kirk Cameron, who I do believe is a misguided moron -- sorry if it makes me a bigot, it's just my view) and their respective views, not matter how crazy/creepy/disgusting/whatever they may be. Maybe I should start a separate thread on this, but I am still curious how the religious, or the more religious than the possible majority here at PU, resolve the porn v. faith issue, if it even is one to them. I know of people who hold pretty lovey-dovey religious points of view, which in turn tolerate such fun activities as premarital sex and, yes, good ol' porn, if never actually openly embracing them. Tolerance and a basic respect for all life in religion is something that is seen all too rarely today, but it's still happens. There's the other more stereotypical view that sex and the human body are naturally dirty and sinful, thus pretty much ruling out tolerance for viewing even the softest, artiest of sites, much less all the other wonderful things we pack into our hard drives. I personally think this viewpoint is a little overemphasized; that is, it just has one of the louder voices out there, not necessarily the largest or strongest. Is there some realistic middle ground, or will there always be a great divide? "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 12-10-09 04:19pm - 5490 days | #22 | |
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Drooler (0)
Disabled User Posts: 1,831 Registered: Mar 11, '07 Location: USA |
Among the religious people I've known, tolerance has been more of an exception than the rule. Really, it gets ugly very fast. I've had things directed at me and have seen things directed at other people by self-proclaimed Christians who feel they have the power of God on their side. And power and control is what they're really all about. Their relationship to their religion actually PREVENTS them from seeing their own flaws. It's not Christianity's fault, but it's pretty ironic how the rottenness in certain people is actually amplified by their own "faith." I see Christianity as a fundamental part of western history, culture, and civilization. Knowing stories and lessons from the Bible is part of being culturally literate. So I don't knock Christianity, nor any other major religion, for the same kinds of reasons, and I'm with you in agreeing that being an intolerant atheist is just as bad as being an intolerant anything else. But I am an atheist just the same, or what I would prefer to call a "person." "Atheist" seems to imply the one with "the problem" -- not by simple analysis of the word, which comes out as neutral -- but by the the emotional baggage that has been hung on to it. But because I am an atheist, if I claimed to have a personal relationship with a being that does not exist, I would be considered psychotic. If I were a Christian, I wouldn't be -- except maybe by atheists. Before the development of science and the technologies that support scientific research, it was understandable that people might think there was a wrathful God that brought about disease and that everything in the Bible should be taken literally. (After all, it was written before the above-mentioned developments.) But certainly by now there's no excuse for living in some past century, to say nothing of attempting to force other people who know better to do so as well. Things are changing, though. I think it was last year that a survey came out showing that for the first time in the US, under 50 percent of the adult population claims to have a religious affiliation. I wanted something new, so I left England for New England. Edited on Dec 10, 2009, 04:41pm | |
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| 12-10-09 06:16pm - 5490 days | #23 | |
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WeeWillyWinky (0)
Active User Posts: 243 Registered: Jun 03, '07 Location: Havasu City, AZ USA |
I think the difference between tolerance and intolerance needs to be clarified a bit. Just what constitutes intolerance? In bygone days, any criticism of God or the official church in power could cause one to be charged with blasphemy or heresy, which could result in being arrested and even executed. Anyone remember Michael Servetus? Burned at the stake because of a theological quibble. Now THAT'S intolerance. I do not consider it an instance of intolerance to very adamantly defend a position or worldview, or to fervently criticize a view which one finds to be morally reprehensible. I find the notion of Hell to be the most evil concept ever dreamed up in the mind of man, and yet I would not join in any movement that sought to make belief in Hell illegal and subject to punishment. In fact, I would stridently oppose such a movement; at the same time, I do not consider it an instance of intolerance when I tell someone that their belief in Hell is immoral and crazy. They have every right to tell me that they find my views immoral and crazy. We can both tolerate each other's right to express our opinions, but we are under no obligation to respect the actual content of those opinions, or even to "tolerate" them in a strictly intellectual sense. I'm intolerant toward the concept of Hell on an intellectual level and find the notion unspeakably evil, but I'm tolerant of the right of someone to hold that belief. Google the Christian Reconstructionists to find an example of genuine intolerance and bigotry. Secular groups can be just as extreme, in my opinion, and the Soviet Union of last century was a good example of that. Let's just hope the Reconstructionists don't actually succeed in actualizing their theocratic wonderland. Then there are organizations like the VHEMT (Voluntary Human Extinction Movement), a group that hopes to eventually wipe out the human species by encouraging people not to reproduce. This is also a form of bigotry and intolerance (in my opinion), but it must be pointed out that they do not advocate actually harming people or stripping them of their rights. And of course, they are humans too, but that doesn't make their goals any more noble or praiseworthy. For a group that claims to be swinging on Nature's side, they don't seem to realize that self-preservation and survival is about as "natural" as it gets. You know what I hate the most about selfish people? It's that they don't think enough about MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!! | |
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| 12-11-09 12:59am - 5490 days | #24 | |
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Drooler (0)
Disabled User Posts: 1,831 Registered: Mar 11, '07 Location: USA |
That's about where I am on it, too. I might try challenging someone to prove that Hell exists. But I also know that sometimes it's best just to leave it alone. There's no point in getting into one of those matches in which the two sides are just shouting out of their own rooms. I wanted something new, so I left England for New England. | |
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| 12-12-09 10:31am - 5489 days | #25 | |
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nostromo (0)
Active User Posts: 131 Registered: Sep 22, '07 Location: madrid/spain |
If you are interested in this issues i'd recommend you Russell Shorto's Descartes' Bones: A Skeletal History of the Conflict Between Faith and Reason. I read it last weekend, it is a page turner. Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. H.L. Mencken. | |
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