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| Porn Users Forum » "A Rosebud By Any Other Name..." |
| 1-26 of 26 Posts | Page 1 |
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| 06-17-14 10:49pm - 3840 days | Original Post - #1 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
"A Rosebud By Any Other Name..." Vice posted an article about the rising (blooming?) popularity of rosebuds. You know; the prolapse.  It's obviously a controversial subject within porn and definitely raises questions about the physical risks of performing, especially the more extreme acts people are dreaming up. The article really only mentions Sheena Shaw, Roxy Raye, and Amy Brooke. Dirty Garden Girl is linked, though not by name, and HotKinkyJo's stomach-bulging acts also go unmentioned, and that's probably for the best. I've got mixed feelings about this myself. I'm not on the extreme end of some of the commenters of the article, but I can't exactly give an unconditional thumbs up to an obviously physically demanding (possibly damaging) act either. Roxy Raye seems to genuinely enjoy it on a certain level, while HotKinkyJo's talent is unique, to say the least. I'm not sure if such acts were inevitable, but I hate to ask: did porn have to come to this? And if you find this subject too upsetting, here's a photo of an actual rose.  "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 06-17-14 11:12pm - 3840 days | #2 | |
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Parsnip (0)
Active User Posts: 39 Registered: Oct 29, '13 Location: Atlanta, Georgia |
I think some of the fools around here who like this sort of stuff should read this. It absolutely sickening that porn has come to this. Something that should be life affirming and beautiful has become all about watching desperate girls receiving long term life changing injuries. I honestly believe that in 10 years time people will look back at the current period, where it has just been open season to commit any abuse on women, with utter disbelief. It really has to end. To the people who watch this, and kink, and the rest of it. How the hell do you sleep at night? | |
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| 06-18-14 07:23am - 3840 days | #3 | |
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Drooler (0)
Disabled User  Posts: 1,831 Registered: Mar 11, '07 Location: USA |
I'd never heard of it, but now that I've read the description, it's really bizarre, extreme, and sick. It's something that only a really demented mind would dream up and/or enjoy. I wanted something new, so I left England for New England. | |
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| 06-18-14 03:45pm - 3840 days | #4 | |
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LPee23 (0)
Active User  Posts: 399 Registered: Jul 14, '13 Location: USA |
I don't get anything out of it, prolapse is not my thing, and of course it's a shame any time a woman is subjected to an injury on account of porn. Just to be fair though, prolapse can result from complications of pregnancy too, not just porn. If someone enjoys that type of thing and their interest makes a woman feel a little better about herself, then of course it is not wrong, and I won't judge people who get off on that. Here's the other catch. Prolapse caused by porn doesn't always result from extreme insertions, it can result from nothing more than lots of anal over the years. The only way to avoid it entirely would be to ban anal, and I don't think anyone is ready for that. I agree with the sentiment of all the posts here, that women should never be injured on account of porn. In fact, I couldn't agree more. We should still be careful about judging those who enjoy prolapse or whatever. Others are out there just as adamant to judge us for enjoying porn in the first place. I draw a hard line at consent. If it's between consenting adults who know and understand the risks, then I have no problem with it appearing in porn. I also personally wouldn't want to see a performer injured in any way. By the way, I'm a member at Kink right now too, although I go for the softer stuff there, mostly pissing.com and the squirting scenes on fuckingmachines.com. Not into the extreme insertions or anything too sadistic. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, so I sleep just fine at night. Better to be pissed on, than to be pissed off. Edited on Jun 18, 2014, 03:53pm | |
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| 06-18-14 04:15pm - 3840 days | #5 | |
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rearadmiral (0)
Active User Posts: 1,453 Registered: Jul 16, '07 Location: NB/Canada |
This is a really interesting article. Thanks for linking to it. I tend to be a fan of harder-edged stuff, and I'm definitely a fan of anal sex videos, but some of this extreme stuff is a bit too far beyond my limits. And I say this as someone who has been a member of Roxy Raye's site, though not for the rosebuds. I recall on another forum (ADT) where a thread was questioning the sanity of any model who would participate in this stuff and I think it was Roxy herself who joined in and in well-reasoned and informed replies made a compelling argument as to why she enjoyed this and why those who don't should stop being so judgmental. Unlike so many others, I don't see this as a slippery slope. I don't think there has been an appreciable increase in the extreme acts that women are asked to perform on camera. I remember in the '80s that there were ads in adult magazines that seemed to offer worse than this. I know I'll suffer some flaming for this, but if the models are aware of the health risks and take steps to mitigate the damage, then just because something isn't to your liking, don't denigrate the people who do like it. Hell, I've taken flack here for just liking tame anal that appears on some 'artcore' sites. Pornusers has always been a forum where people could agree to disagree and not descend into verbal fisticuffs. | |
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| 06-18-14 05:02pm - 3840 days | #6 | |
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biker (0)
Active User  Posts: 632 Registered: May 03, '08 Location: milwaukee, wi |
Look at sports. There are football linemen that take 15 minutes to get out of bed, after years of beating their bodies to hold or crush through a line. Their legs and back are beyond repair. A sport that continues to add new rules every year because of the dangers of physical injury. There will always be people who will risk their health because some activity is that important to them. Warning Will Robinson | |
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| 06-18-14 05:48pm - 3840 days | #7 | |
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thirstyfish (0)
Active User  Posts: 30 Registered: May 20, '13 |
I remember reading an article years ago (20+) in one of the local Mpls papers (Twin Cities Reader, City Pages, or some such) about the realities of anal intercourse as it pertains to porn girls (injuries, incontinence, infections, the need for semi-permanent butt plugs, etc.). Not exactly romantic stuff - but then political journalism usually isn't. The Vice article, in this sense, is nothing new. I found Ms. Lhooq's statement "What used to be taboo is now a staple, and the public is taking notice." insightful. This certainly happened in the mid-1960's when the themes depicted in exploitation/schlock movies started to go mainstream. Regarding prolapsing: I'm aware of it, have watched it, and consider it a form of hard-core shock inflation. It is eye-grabbing in a 'WTF?' sort of way but it doesn't do a whole lot for me. So when I do run across it, I may watch or, more likely, not. I.E., I'm not a fan. As for doing something about it? I prefer to quietly vote with my wallet. You could call that a head-in-the-sand attitude given that a LOT of users don't bother to pay for what they watch but I'm not much of an activist. That said, I try to steer clear of the popular pastime of looking for reasons to be outraged and offended since it can sometimes lead to hyperbole, judgementalism and intolerance. Thanks for the link, Turbo - an interesting read and it's spawned a good discussion here. Porn happens because a large number of things amazingly fail to go wrong. | |
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| 06-18-14 06:30pm - 3840 days | #8 | |
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pat362 (0)
Active User  Posts: 3,575 Registered: Jan 23, '07 Location: canada |
You are correct but just because it happens doesn't mean that it should and I'd like to point out that the league is being sued for large sums of money because of what you wrote. There are plenty of football players with long term injuries that have little if any money to take care of these problems. I'd also like to use your post to address what others wrote. I don't believe that most of the performers are truly aware of the long term harm in attempting or even doing multiple rosebuds. They are for the most part very young women who don't look at the long term harm of most of what they do on film. Long live the Brown Coats. | |
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| 06-18-14 08:43pm - 3840 days | #9 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
Sadly, you're right, pat. There are five big reasons so many professional athletes file for bankruptcy after retirement (on top of other problems like injuries, education, employment, etc.). The percentage of NFL players alone filing for bankruptcy within five years is a depressing 78%. And that's after an average $1.9 million annual salary and $6.65 million "lifetime" earnings--numbers that are incomprehensible to all but a few Americans. Worse, the NFL has an annual revenue around $10 billion (with a "b"), which they apparently hope to raise to an unholy $25 billion by 2027. It all makes porn sound positively quaint--of course, our culture teaches exactly the opposite. I guess that's why I've never been into sports; I just find them too morally repugnant.  As for the rosebuds...I'm still not sure what to make of them. Or even people thanking me for posting an article about them, for that matter (though you're all very welcome!), but at least they can spawn an interesting discussion. "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 06-19-14 12:02am - 3839 days | #10 | |
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Parsnip (0)
Active User Posts: 39 Registered: Oct 29, '13 Location: Atlanta, Georgia |
I don't get the analogy with sport - unless fans are being sexually aroused by watching close-up detail of deliberately inflicted injuries, and the players get no compensation, that is... The are two crucial quotes in the article, one is that "everyone is pressured to do anal", the other is "they make you sign a waiver before doing this kind of scene". Consent is meaningless unless is it freely given and informed. If this stuff wasn't so dangerous, why do they insist on a waiver? They know they'd be financially wiped out, that's why. I know I'm supposed to be nice and cuddly with everybody here, but the utter lack of humanity and blazing hatred of women that you must have to watch this sort of thing is beyond me. You are watching serious long term, life changing injuries. That is sick. You are lying to yourself if you pretend otherwise. | |
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| 06-19-14 09:33pm - 3838 days | #11 | |
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Cybertoad (0)
Disabled User  Posts: 2,158 Registered: Jan 01, '08 Location: Wash |
 Since 2007 | |
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| 06-20-14 06:47am - 3838 days | #12 | |
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jberryl69 (0)
Disabled User  Posts: 1,000 Registered: Nov 27, '10 Location: neverland |
A "normal" prolapse is not a voluntary act or skill. They just sort of fall out. I think the idea is that blooming a rose bud is something they learn how to do - but that said, there is no long term consequence that is known now. It could be like taking control with keagle exercise and I don't believe learning those muscle controls are dangerous. While I do believe that 'anal is required', the prolapse is not - just something extreme. But like I said, no one knows the consequence - just like when I was a kid and my tonsils were removed but grew back and to 'fix' that problem they dosed them with massive amounts of X-rays. Problem with that was, the consequence thyroid cancer. I get the sports analogy - Players know that they take a chance of serous injury but they play anyway. One would suspect that the girls that play might eventually have to pay. But who knows at this point? My normal response is 'follow the money'. If it ain't grits, it must be a Yankee. If you're going to lay her head over the pool table and fuck her throat, get your fucking hand off her throat! Edited on Jun 20, 2014, 06:50am | |
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| 06-20-14 07:29am - 3838 days | #13 | |
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biker (0)
Active User Posts: 632 Registered: May 03, '08 Location: milwaukee, wi |
^Thank you jberry169. "I get the sports analogy - Players know that they take a chance of serous injury but they play anyway. One would suspect that the girls that play might eventually have to pay. But who knows at this point?" This thread has nothing to do with being sexually aroused, but with the harmful effects a certain act can lead to. Football players have had bone injuries since the games inception. Every player knows what occurs during a game. Linemen are 300 plus pounds and smash into each other the minute the ball is snapped. This is multiple times every game. You can't play this sport and not know you're beating your body. Muscles can be strengthened with exercise, but bone and tendons remain the same. These are what get injured and yet young men continue to enter this line of work knowing the results. Warning Will Robinson Edited on Jun 20, 2014, 07:44am | |
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| 06-21-14 06:00am - 3837 days | #14 | |
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rearadmiral (0)
Active User Posts: 1,453 Registered: Jul 16, '07 Location: NB/Canada |
It occurred to me that perhaps we're getting sucked down a rabbit hole on this issue by thinking that this is the future of porn when clearly it is a fringe niche and will likely remain that way. Trends come and go in porn. Is prolapsing unhealthy? I don't think anyone would disagree with the statement that prolapsing on purpose may cause health problems. But how many models do prolapse porn? I'm not asking that as a rhetorical question because as someone who doesn't look for it I really don't know. But the article only cites a handful and members here only know of the same handful. I really doubt that new models sit in the talent scout's office and are asked if they're willing to let their lower colon collapse out of their anus. As one of the 'fools' around here who do like seeing anal sex I don't agree that this is just one more step toward complete depravity and social collapse. Many people heralded Max Hardcore as the end of porn but it turns out he was a just a minor side branch off of the then-new gonzo material. It is probably a natural human inclination to label as 'the other' someone who's interests, tastes or beliefs don't properly align with our own, but this seems to be just a fringe niche and not a trend toward new lows of depravity. (Consider the rise of artcore sites. They seem to be in their ascendancy in terms of numbers and popularity. It seems to me that if we were all morally bankrupt monsters pushing models to do more and more extreme acts that artcore sites wouldn't be financially viable.) | |
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| 06-21-14 10:22am - 3837 days | #15 | |
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graymane (0)
Suspended  Posts: 1,411 Registered: Feb 20, '10 Location: Virginia |
I never checked out this informative link you provided, turbo. Because my stomach acids are already doing enough damage to my insides without stirring the juices up further. I'd like to add, its this kind of insidious practice making disturbing inroads within the industry that is graphically spelling out that porn (as we know it) is seriously risking an inevitable course to meeting its Waterloo. So, extending my appreciation, sincere thanks, I commend you, turbo, for putting some life in this wake-up call and bringing it to the attention of our members. | |
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| 06-21-14 11:18am - 3837 days | #16 | ||
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pat362 (0)
Active User Posts: 3,575 Registered: Jan 23, '07 Location: canada |
Where to start with this. Maybe I missed a post but where did anyone say that watching football has the same effect as watching porn? The analogy between extreme sex acts and playing football is that most football players only think of the money they will make from playing football without considering the possibility of long term health problems the same way that most porn performers do when shooting porn. It's hard to know if both players and performers would still do what they do if they were truly informed because it's never been attempted.
Yes it's true that every performer is pressured into doing anal and once upon a time women could say no and still get plenty of work but those days are gone. In fact doing anal will in no way guarantee that you get tons of offer but if a woman is really smart than she can make a few large sums of money for her first(s). The sad reality is that there are now too few studios shooting porn and way too much available talent that few people actually make a decent living from porn. Most women and some men do porn to get the chance to be a pornstar escort as opposed to a regular escort. As for the waiver thing. I believe this is for rosebud anal only. I'm not aware of any waiver a girl has to sign prior to doing regular anal but frankly you are shit out of luck in either case because a performer is on her own when it comes to on-set accidents. How many performers have ever sued a porn company? Long live the Brown Coats. | ||
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| 06-21-14 02:47pm - 3837 days | #17 | |
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jberryl69 (0)
Disabled User Posts: 1,000 Registered: Nov 27, '10 Location: neverland |
Gee RearAdmiral - Your first sentence is still "might cause health problems" but it's a hard statement to prove at this point. And your "willing to let the lower color collapse..." is not atomically correct since there is a difference between the word 'collapse' & 'push'. The latter being how it's done. And one would think new girls do not know how but have to learn. I agree though that a "talent scout" would not be asking that kind of question. Two skills in porn - deep throat & intentional prolapse. Glad I don't have to clear this with my mom to talk about this subject. If it ain't grits, it must be a Yankee. If you're going to lay her head over the pool table and fuck her throat, get your fucking hand off her throat! | |
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| 06-21-14 04:56pm - 3837 days | #18 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
I think the analogy is more that both porn and professional sports are businesses, and the bottom line will always be the priority. And not to be cynical (okay, who am I kidding?  ), but you could argue that most changes were driven not for some greater moral stance but to ensure the continuation of the business. For example, the 2257 regulations are quite strict--arguably the one law any production won't even think of violating--but if the laws were suddenly changed tomorrow (say to seventeen, instead of eighteen) I doubt most would even hesitate for a second to shoot younger performers. Sites will even boast about such borderline "she just turned eighteen" milestones as if they're real achievements. That being said, I don't see either professional sports (particularly, the NFL) or porn significantly changing their business because of health or moral concerns. If there is an audience, and it can generate revenue, then that is reason enough to carry on. Tackle football is well known to cause injuries--the majority of which are suffered by kids, as they make up the majority of players--but we will still watch it. And we will still watch porn, because we enjoy it. Not too pile on sports too much, but the NFL isn't alone. A couple weeks ago comedian John Oliver did a piece on his new show explaining how evil FIFA was, taking advantage of the world popularity of soccer (or football to everyone outside of the U.S.  ), leading to riots in World Cup host Brazil. Yet, despite all the controversy, he still loves the sport and won't stop watching it. "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 06-22-14 12:25pm - 3836 days | #19 | |
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pat362 (0)
Active User Posts: 3,575 Registered: Jan 23, '07 Location: canada |
^Of course if the legal age for doing porn was 17 then many studios would shoot 17 year old girls. How many of them currently don't shoot 18 or 19 years old on moral grounds? None because they don't really care. Condoms have been used in porn for at least 30 years and some studios like Wicked have used them since day one but it has taken a law for studios to start talking about using them. The main reason 2257 exists is because too many 17 years old were getting into the industry and it was next to impossible to track these young men and women, Now that there is a law and the producer is responsible if the person he shoots is underage then he has no excuses. In return he has the protection of said law since he can show that he has all the legal papers issued by a Government agency. Tracy Lord did porn at 15 and she managed to do that because she had a drivers license saying that she was 18. She couldn't do it today because someone would find out that she isn't and producers would be protected from themselves. Long live the Brown Coats. | |
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| 06-24-14 09:00am - 3834 days | #20 | |
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AWpress (0)
Active Webmaster  Posts: 118 Registered: Nov 20, '12 Location: The Netherlands |
I respectfully disagree, I don't think it is primarily to do with a proliferation of 17-year-olds determined to get into porn (not to say it *absolutely* wasn't that). 2257 requirements were put in place by the 'Child Protection and Obscenity Enforcement Act of 1988'; ostensibly to 'protect the children'. Though few can fault the noble goal of combating and criminalising porn depicting minors (which is why it passed), this law doesn't do much in that regard. It's not as if illegal and immoral sites give a hoot about compliance (the distribution of such content typically occurs entirely in the shadows). Moreover, this ceremonial law is basically unenforced. To my knowledge, the FBI haven't *ever* audited anyone's 2257 records, much less pressed charges on those grounds. Not to say it's useless. It's good practice to maintain rigorous documentation, to protect oneself with evidence of reasonable and responsible efforts to ensure all performers are of age. Decrying pornographers as predators of children is pretty stock-standard, it's nice to have a quick and solid answer to that charge. Mostly, though, I'd say the purpose of 2257 is customer assurance. Title 18 is a US law, applicable to US sites, in the US. Yet, virtually all sites of repute, regardless of origin, comply. We're an Australian company based in the Netherlands, and we keep meticulous 2257 documentation ready for presentation at any moment. Why? Well, the majority of internet surfers, and porn customers, are American. It makes them feel assured that a site is above the level to see 2257 compliance. Conversely, absence of compliance is seen as suspicious (or downright incriminating, regardless of the lack of jurisdiction). Such it is that a child-protection bill protected roughly zero children but lives on as a kind of consumer confidence accreditation; outside of the US, as a kind of industry self-regulation. | |
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| 06-24-14 05:42pm - 3834 days | #21 | |
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LPee23 (0)
Active User Posts: 399 Registered: Jul 14, '13 Location: USA |
This discussion just took an interesting turn. I agree that the major effect of 2257 records nowadays is providing assurance to consumers that what they are purchasing is legitimate. I don't think the FBI has raided anyone for 2257 records, but I think the Bush era Department of Justice did initiate a round of inspections in 2006. I'm not sure if they convicted anyone, but I think it did lead a lot of webmasters to go over their records, realize that many were incomplete, and self-censor by deleting a lot of legal content that just wasn't properly documented. I know first hand of a webmaster who purchased a European site and couldn't use a portion of their content because their 2257 records were incomplete. I like to think that all sites keep good 2257 documents, but in reality, think about the potential for disorganized webmasters to lose track. We all know a bunch of sites that look like they haven't been updated since 2005, are riddled with errors, and their webmasters are impossible to reach. Do you think sites like this really have meticulous records? Somehow, I doubt it. I also have heard of a site with truly illegal content that claimed to have valid 2257 documents. The owner was arrested, I think in Russia back around 2006. This particular site was a black mark on good operations everywhere, and it deserves to be forgotten. Better to be pissed on, than to be pissed off. Edited on Jun 24, 2014, 05:46pm | |
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| 06-24-14 07:37pm - 3834 days | #22 | |
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Cybertoad (0)
Disabled User Posts: 2,158 Registered: Jan 01, '08 Location: Wash |
Really hope this topic dies soon           Since 2007 | |
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| 06-24-14 07:54pm - 3834 days | #23 | |
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jberryl69 (0)
Disabled User Posts: 1,000 Registered: Nov 27, '10 Location: neverland |
^ asshole!....  /jk If it ain't grits, it must be a Yankee.If you're going to lay her head over the pool table and fuck her throat, get your fucking hand off her throat! | |
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| 06-25-14 09:59am - 3833 days | #24 | |||
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AWpress (0)
Active Webmaster Posts: 118 Registered: Nov 20, '12 Location: The Netherlands |
Even though 2257 legislation doesn't strictly have jurisdiction, we do claim to have it, and that more or less embodies a promise to would-be members.
Oh ho, this is a good point too. We don't buy or sell 3rd party content, but plenty of sites do. If you were in that business, you better hope you take 2257 documentation; good luck selling your content without it (especially considering that the majority of bigtime paysites are American).
This kind of highlights it, too. Scumbags can, and will, just lie. Good to hear they got what was coming; if they were based in Russia, though, it would have been due to Russian laws. If anything, the unenforced 2257 would've lent this site undue credibility. It's a tricky problem, though, because it'd be a monumental effort to enforce such legislation and audit everyone too. Random spot checks might do the trick. Alternately, perhaps a digital solution would lend 2257 more credibility; there is a growing array of identity verification solutions for online credit card purchases, including some which involve a webcam snapshot of your face, and ID. Such technology could conceivably be adapted... | |||
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| 06-25-14 04:57pm - 3833 days | #25 | |
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LPee23 (0)
Active User Posts: 399 Registered: Jul 14, '13 Location: USA |
If you have a very large number of models, it requires effort on a consistent basis over the years to avoid losing a small number of records. One brief lapse is all it takes, and without self-auditing, you would never know. This is why X-Art.com could be in trouble, as I said in the Malibu Media thread, because it looks like their 2257 records are likely to get dragged into court soon. It's a tough bar to meet when one accidental slip up that results in a single lost record can result in criminal charges. Better to be pissed on, than to be pissed off. | |
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| 06-26-14 05:48am - 3832 days | #26 | |
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AWpress (0)
Active Webmaster Posts: 118 Registered: Nov 20, '12 Location: The Netherlands |
Indeed; we've got over 1500 models on our site, no small number (all documented). Our CEO actually had 50+ charges tossed at him back in Australia, amidst a moral panic drummed up by the media. Thanks in part to the exhaustive documentation, every single charge against him was dropped. Of course, that was a more complicated issue born mostly out legal ambiguities and the of the lack of firm statutes protecting free speech in Australia (we don't have a bill of rights like America! Westminster influenced politics are funny like that). Part of the reason we ultimately relocated operations to Amsterdam. | |
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