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| Porn Users Forum » Adult industry, a friend or a foe? |
| 1-17 of 17 Posts | Page 1 |
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| 09-24-10 01:20am - 5203 days | Original Post - #1 | |
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RustyJ (0)
Suspended Posts: 79 Registered: Aug 04, '10 |
Adult industry, a friend or a foe? With slight disbelief I read all the reviews and comments where our fellow users basically say that many respectable looking businesses are simply crooks and thieves. It appears that many simply do not care at all even what people on sites like this think and say about their practices although they obviously are connected somehow with review sites with their special pricings and such things. There must be something strange afoot when people see things like direct credit card billing as a red flag that makes them avoid a site altogether although there really is no safer method of payment than cc around. They try to make you accidentally buy things you did not want. They make it hard to unsubscribe. They charge you too much and do not reply to support email. They sell your email address to spammers. They make outright false promises. They offer you cheap or free trials that are practically impossible to cancel in time to avoid very expensive rebill. And then when they think you've broken their rules (like having logged in from too many IP addresses) they ban you right away without further explanations. Is there a trend or do I read too much into the negatives that people always tend to bring up easier than the positives? How could they really keep up with that kind of behaviour since no reputable credit card or billing companies would keep doing business with them? Or is it just that people suck it up and never make charge back requests? Could it have something to do with local legislation as it at least appears to me that European sites have less of the pre checked traps and other nastiness? Why would they kick the paying customer at the times when everybody complains about piracy? Personally I've always seen adult business as any other industry, only that it creates content strongly disliked by some. Never thought there was anything shady in the business practices of the major names. I guess I've been lucky so far with only one unused spare email addy turned into a  box. | |
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| 09-24-10 02:30am - 5203 days | #2 | |
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Yariana (0)
Suspended Webmaster  Posts: 56 Registered: Mar 10, '10 Location: Salem Oregon |
RustyJ, Great post. You are not reading too much into this. Your concerns are very valid. One morning in January 2010 I awoke to check my stats only to find that all my members credit cards had been declined on re-bills and all potential new members as well. I promptly contacted my credit card processor to find out what was wrong. The story they gave me was, well...just a story. I did not find out until a month later what the truth was. Visa got fed up with the practices you mentioned above and started pulling Visa merchant accounts from offending 3rd party payment processor in the adult industry for allowing adult sites to practice such behaviors. They would not reinstate any of the processing accounts they pulled until every last offender complied. Unfortunately, when they pulled the merchant accounts of these payment processors, all adult sites using them whether guilty or not, went down, me included. I was furious because it took me quit awhile to get another merchant account and I was not involved in the shady practices many adult sites use to make money. Bad customer service, tricky join pages with hardly visible check boxes joining members up for additional sites they do not want, making it difficult to get out of trials or to cancel memberships, are just a few of the reasons adult sites have so many charge backs. These high charge back rates are the reason Visa is now cracking down on third party processors. They recently passed new regulation disallowing many of these practices. It has not stopped many sites from still using them but when Visa catches up with them, they will be asked to stop or lose their right to processor Visa payments. Personally, I do not understand how some of these adult sites stay in business. My members often tell me stories about bad experiences with sites they have joined. I believe in building business based on loyalty to the paying customer. Without our members, we would have no business. Though it is true that piracy and people charging back just to get their porn free (yes, this happens quit often),is a burden on the adult industry, there is still no excuse to treat members with such disrespect, or any other customer for that matter. The trend is rampant in all business these days, adult and mainstream. I miss the good ole days when you could walk into your local store and they knew you by name. Now you are lucky to get a human on the phone in any customer service department. Not all of us are crooks and thieves however. We may be difficult to locate but some of us still respect and care about people and believe in giving people what they pay for. Edited on Sep 24, 2010, 02:39am | |
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| 09-24-10 02:41am - 5203 days | #3 | |
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RustyJ (0)
Suspended Posts: 79 Registered: Aug 04, '10 |
Thanks for your reply! Even though it's caused trouble to you, it's good to hear that Visa has been cracking down on the scammy businesses. They must know that without Visa and Master Card they'd be dead in no time. What I find strange is why do they even bother trying. It's so easy to get your money back on major credit cards that sometimes I pity the online sellers. There must be many who think it was only few dozen bucks and try to forget about their loss. | |
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| 09-24-10 03:11am - 5203 days | #4 | |
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Yariana (0)
Suspended Webmaster Posts: 56 Registered: Mar 10, '10 Location: Salem Oregon |
An online business can't survive without accepting Visa. At least not for any length of time. 90% of my sales are Visa so when they pulled the account I almost went out of business. I had to dip into my personal savings just to post an update each week. Ouch! There really are people that join, download everything, then charge back, but this too Visa is cracking down on. If they see a trend with a card user doing this, they will cancel their account. But for the merchant, if they offer a great product, fair pricing, and great customer service, the honest consumer will continue to do business with them which in turn, out weights the loss incurred from the scammers. If a customer really likes the site, they will usually retrain from the charge back because they don't want to get blacklisted from the site. | |
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| 09-24-10 05:22am - 5203 days | #5 | |
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RustyJ (0)
Suspended Posts: 79 Registered: Aug 04, '10 |
There's also the thing that I've understood in many cases the actors and actresses become directors and producers and eventually business owners. I guess it's the traditional "American way", the story that is told about people working at the Mc Donalds, frying hamburgers to eventually be the managing directors of the company. They of course go to many schools in between which I doubt pornographers do. Could it be that many people on the high seats in adult industry aren't just educated in economy and law and their attitude is careless and even reckless without them really trying to scam or anything? I guess they rarely hire professional managers from outside but what do I know... It's just that I'm starting to get this "they're out to get me" feeling about the whole thing  | |
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| 09-24-10 05:56am - 5203 days | #6 | |
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nostromo (0)
Active User Posts: 131 Registered: Sep 22, '07 Location: madrid/spain |
 It's true pornography websites foster paranoia. You should have seen the narrow and treacherous path that i had to go trough today to cancel my RealityKings membership. Stupid on their behalf, perhaps, but i've been a member to their site many times and they probably know that i'll come back in the near future for more. However, it takes courage to join a site that hasn't been thoroughly reviewed by one of our fellow trusted pornusers, so i keep coming to five to ten sites time and again, much to my disappointment. Don't get me started on the regional pric...ehh...looting practices. Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. H.L. Mencken. Edited on Sep 24, 2010, 09:56am | |
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| 09-24-10 08:54am - 5203 days | #7 | |
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Advent (0)
Active Webmaster  Posts: 103 Registered: Aug 13, '09 Location: Tampa, FL |
I have to say that I agree with all of your points. I have not been in the business for very long, some people even call me naive. I look for the best in people and I do not go into situations with my guard up thinking I might get scammed. I can say that my company does not partake in those types of practices because we feel if we do not have the trust of our members then we do not have a member for life. If we are up front with our members on what they get, let them cancel if they want to and refund their membership when it is needed they might come back to us down the road. I can say that scams are not just aimed at the paying customer. I am the affiliate manager and I was scammed last week. I got the ole bait and switch. Just like in every business there are people that are out to make a buck and have no regard for anyone else. Those people do not stay around very long. It is the ones that are honest that you see have been in the business for years and years. We do not deal with fly by night guys because we do not want to put our members trust in us at jeopardy. Owner Kick Ass Pictures CumEatingCuckolds, FootFetishDaily and Kick Ass Pictures Please feel free to contact me with concerns or comments, I would love to hear from you. | |
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| 09-24-10 01:32pm - 5203 days | #8 | |
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Wittyguy (0)
Active User  Posts: 1,138 Registered: Feb 04, '08 Location: Left Coast, USA |
Good post there Rusty. When it comes to billing, a lot of us (including me) have been around the porn block a few times have been burned at some point in the past. When a site uses a reputable 3rd party billing system that tells me that: 1) the site is "for real" and not a scam; 2) I'll have someone, besides the webmaster, to complain to or seek recourse from if something goes terribly wrong; 3) My credit card info is probably safe; and 4) I know what to expect when it comes time to cancel (no sending emails or making phone calls, just click a few times and its done). While direct billing can be the safest route to go in terms of protecting myself, that is only true if the company processing my info has a secure system in place. I admit that I am a bit reluctant when I see direct billing for porn sites (mostly newer sites or ones that are based overseas) because of this security issue. I can empathize with the site managers since porn in notorious for having it's share of bad customers as well as bad operators. I can sometimes be difficult and expensive to work with a good billing company. However, if you are running a legitimate site then the legal recourse of shoddy billing practices / systems and loss of customers will kill you. In other words, while it can be tough on the webmaster, it comes with the territory of running a respected website. The same goes with cross sales and difficult cancellation processes. If you're running a legitimate site, why do this in hopes of catching a few idiots for a few extra bucks. When I shop at Amazon (thanks $200 Tuesdays) they don't add extra stuff to my basket at checkout hoping I won't notice or require me to make a telephone call to cancel an order. Porn is a business, and the more porn sites act like a regular business the more us customers like it. I definitely think there are some people here at PU (I'm not going to address the one review/comment wonders who are just carping about something) who are a bit extreme with their take on billing. For me, it's really a nonfactor when it comes to the review unless something went wrong or there's a slew of cross sales. Anyway, I've said it before and I'm saying it again. Porn is no longer the wild west of the internet. If you want to make it, you have to run it like a retail business. Companies that shut down customers or try to trick them don't cut it in my book. For me, it reflects a lack of technological ingenuity and "monkey see, monkey due" mentality that just isn't going to help you in the long term. The porn biz is a bitch because some people steal and repost your stuff and others try to get out of paying the bill (although it seems a site should be able to track how much each member has downloaded making those situations harder to dispute) and the costs of quality are high why the profits can be low. Welcome to the real business world. | |
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| 09-24-10 01:32pm - 5203 days | #9 | |
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Yariana (0)
Suspended Webmaster Posts: 56 Registered: Mar 10, '10 Location: Salem Oregon |
Advent, I do not believe you are naive. You just want to do things the way they should be done and this is highly commendable. We just celebrated our 1 year as a membership site and I must say I have learned a lot and changed my view points somewhat. The facts are that there always have been and always will be scammers, both as consumers and as business owners. This will always be the case. The difficult part is knowing where to draw the line. I recently replied to a post regarding DRM. Boy did that open up some interesting discussions from both sides of the issue. My problem with piracy led me to realizing the need for website security. Once installed my regular honest members had no problem with it, but it exposed the huge amount of password abuse that was taking place and those busted, cussed me then did charge backs. The new security system eventually led me to an underground password trading sight where some of my paying members were actually selling their passwords for a buck to those wanting to get access to the site. One of them I busted doing this has been a recurring member for quite a while and has sent me emails telling me how much he loves the site. Yes, I bet he did as it was a source of income for him! My point is this, I was hurt. I was stunned. I was shocked. I thought, "You cant trust anyone anymore." I have been strongly considering going all streaming instead of allowing downloads because of the piracy. It wouldn't stop it but it certainly would slow it down. But after a few days I decided that I cannot allow it to affect my judgment and my communication with my members. It isn't fair to them. On the other hand, I have to toughen up or I will surely be out of business. My bandwidth usage was so high from all the password trading that it about put me under. But does toughening up result in becoming callous to the needs and desires of our members? I disdain those sites that are giving all of us adult sites a bad reputation just for being in the industry, and I disdain those consumers who are giving other consumers a bad reputation just for being consumers. Finding a balance in all this is important for both consumers and businesses. I love this thread and I love these PU forums. What a great way for us all to gain a deeper understanding of the complexities of such issues. Edited on Sep 24, 2010, 02:42pm | |
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| 09-24-10 01:36pm - 5203 days | #10 | |
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Rob12 (0)
Active User Posts: 22 Registered: Aug 16, '10 Location: canada |
Well,its nice to read your comments on the practices of various sites and companies. So far knock on wood I haven't been scammed just dissapointed with some of the sites I've joined and left feeling cheated. It would be great if sites which screw around with people could be put on a National Watch List or something along that line. To put a site up on such list would sure make users aware of what they are getting into, be hard to do though cause the sites are like lice, they come and go so quickly. Get the suckers money and split. Rob12  Rob12 | |
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| 09-24-10 01:42pm - 5203 days | #11 | |
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Yariana (0)
Suspended Webmaster Posts: 56 Registered: Mar 10, '10 Location: Salem Oregon |
ROB12 Great idea! I have been thinking about starting a forum where porn users could post their experiences with sites they have used. Just checking on the legalities of it first. We should be held accountable. Then maybe a lot of this crap would become less prevalent. Would you mind sharing what types of disappointments you have encountered? Not the names of the companies, just the things that disappointed you. I read these boards and others a lot. It is a learning tool for me. It keeps me grounded and aware of the needs and desires of consumers. Those companies that pay no attention to these issues get tunnel vision and often fail. I would love to hear of your experiences. Edited on Sep 24, 2010, 02:09pm | |
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| 09-24-10 01:59pm - 5203 days | #12 | |
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Yariana (0)
Suspended Webmaster Posts: 56 Registered: Mar 10, '10 Location: Salem Oregon |
It is certainly possible to track the bandwidth usage of members. Our new system is great at that! It is not that expensive and it pinpoints who is doing the deed instead of leaving us wondering who is doing the deed. If a member claims they were not on the site or could not download anything, we have record of their bandwidth usage per their IP. It is not fool proof but it is a tool of value. I have heard complaints from some that sites will just ban their accounts without explanation. This is old school where security systems are concerned and should not be happening. Another thing our system does that many do not, is it temporarily bans the password of those using multiple IPs but only if the virtually velocity of the address indicates it impossible for that user to be in different places within a period of time. If it does detect abuse it shuts down the password and asks them at next login to request a new password with a valid email account on file, stating it may not be their fault, someone may have acquired their password through unauthorized means. It does not automatically ban a user accusing them of fraud. The webmaster also has control to allow certain IP's to be accepted if the user is a business traveler and uses laptops and other means of access. It takes work on the webmasters part but running a business effectively is work and there is no room for laziness. It will only shut down a users access if the compromised password issue continues to happen over and over again with a particular user. You are correct in stating "Welcome to the real business world." If a company is professional they will handle the issues in a professional manner rather than spreading their misery on everyone. It is just the cost of doing business. Edited on Sep 24, 2010, 02:45pm | |
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| 09-24-10 02:34pm - 5203 days | #13 | |
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Yariana (0)
Suspended Webmaster Posts: 56 Registered: Mar 10, '10 Location: Salem Oregon |
This is such an interesting thread! I think you hit the nail on the head RustyJ. Many just jump in the industry without any education or without researching the industry first. It is a fairly common belief "Start a porn business, get rich." Maybe back when it was the "Wild Wild West" but not anymore. It always perplexes me when people email me with this question "I want to do just what you are doing. How do I get started." I tell them "Create an original idea, get some good equipment, take some classes, and get some advice from an adult industry attorney." Too many adult webmasters are just copying everyone else. The blind leading the blind, so to speak. It is all about easy money. We need to get back to the way businesses use to be run, what is taught in business classes, "take care of your customers and they will return." | |
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| 09-24-10 03:53pm - 5203 days | #14 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
I understand the appeal of wanting to work in the adult industry but not specifically owning your own company--that's an enormous responsibility and carries with it quite a bit of risk! Just look at some of the legal cases of the last few years; John Stagliano can easily be considered rich and successful but it certainly didn't keep him out of court. I honestly think it would be a lot of fun to work for him (behind the cameras) but not actually be him. Also as to the get-rich-quick attitudes, these ignore a lot of the recent economic problems as well as the overall costs to running a porn company. Lawyers, quality equipment and quality talent are very important but can add up quickly, and that's before you could even have your first customer. How much of it could just be chalked up to too many guys who want nothing more than to fuck hot and horny girls rather than run a decent site? "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 09-25-10 01:19pm - 5202 days | #15 | |
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graymane (0)
Suspended  Posts: 1,411 Registered: Feb 20, '10 Location: Virginia |
I gotta say...this thread, and after going through the following posts, I feel as though I've been granted a free PHD (if there ever was one on this school of thought). The afore-mentioned exchange of experiences, ideas and comments between Web-managers and consumers (members) are indeed informative and sprinkled with notable perils of wisdom. I've submitted my thoughts on previous occasions regarding the need and exchange for this kind of discourse.... Now, happily, Rusty has revitalized these issues with a stunningly productive thread that's yielding some doggone good stuff.  | |
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| 09-25-10 05:00pm - 5202 days | #16 | |
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Drooler (0)
Disabled User  Posts: 1,831 Registered: Mar 11, '07 Location: USA |
I'll say this: The porn industry is a foe with those damned boob jobs they make the girls get. I just saw on Pink Panther's thread what they've done to Talia Shepard and Amia Moretti! I wanted something new, so I left England for New England. | |
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| 09-26-10 05:14am - 5201 days | #17 | |
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RustyJ (0)
Suspended Posts: 79 Registered: Aug 04, '10 |
Good replies, thanks to all! I never knew that the industry side too is facing so many issues with bad users. Just because it's porn, it shouldn't be all dirty play and bad practices | |
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