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| 12-21-08 09:57am - 5845 days | Original Post - #1 | |
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mbaya (0)
Suspended  Posts: 891 Registered: Jul 07, '08 Location: new jersey |
unethical web sites I recently had a bad experience with Germangoogirls. The Squirrel and JayG suggested that a red flag be posted about sites that use deceptive or dishonest business practices. How do you feel about this? What sites have you felt others need to be warned about? Edited on Dec 21, 2008, 12:31pm | |
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| 12-21-08 11:35am - 5845 days | #2 | |
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badandy400 (0)
Active User  Posts: 869 Registered: Mar 02, '08 Location: ohio |
Incredible pASS!!!! This one is pretty bad and we have all seen countless testimonies to what they do. "For example, badandy400 has taken it upon himself to become the one man Library of Congress for porn with a collection that surely will be in Guinness Book of World Records some day." ~Toadsith~ PU Interview | |
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| 12-21-08 07:16pm - 5845 days | #3 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User  Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
I think all three of us think this is a great idea. Ultimate Porn Zone is another site that has had really bad reviews recently, mainly due to the fact that it claims to have tons of sites, but they all have the same material. I think TBP should have a blacklist or Red Flag system where the really bad ones are named and shamed. It all goes towards helping the money end up with the really good, honest sites. So it isn't all about criticism and being negative. In the end it has a positive and beneficial effect for everyone. | |
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| 12-21-08 08:38pm - 5845 days | #4 | |
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badandy400 (0)
Active User Posts: 869 Registered: Mar 02, '08 Location: ohio |
Squirrel, the problem with an official "blacklist" or "shit list" is we then must derive the criteria for making the list. What one person calls a bad site another my not. If you look at the Incredible Pass page here at PU it is evident that as a whole we are blasting them. Anyone who looks at the reviews for a site before joining it would see this. I believe the PU/TBP guys were correct when developing this site when they decided not to feature a "blacklist." In a way they have flagged out sites in extreme cases. Incredible Pass is still listed here but they list a strong warning and disabled the link. They also got ride of the mentions to Max Hardcore as a CYA move. "For example, badandy400 has taken it upon himself to become the one man Library of Congress for porn with a collection that surely will be in Guinness Book of World Records some day." ~Toadsith~ PU Interview | |
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| 12-22-08 02:57am - 5844 days | #5 | |
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Drooler (0)
Disabled User  Posts: 1,831 Registered: Mar 11, '07 Location: USA |
I agree with what BadAndy400 said. We don't need an official blacklist anyway. What we have is good enough. We get warnings from TBP, which has itself improved quite a bit in this regard, and we get warnings at PU from individual users. Adding extra layers to this wouldn't serve the purpose any better. I wanted something new, so I left England for New England. | |
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| 12-22-08 03:34am - 5844 days | #6 | |
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mbaya (0)
Suspended Posts: 891 Registered: Jul 07, '08 Location: new jersey |
I am glad you pointed out the warning on the Incredible Pass page. This is exactly what is needed to make it clear to anyone what kind of company they are. Are there other sites with this message from PU/TBP? | |
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| 12-22-08 07:16am - 5844 days | #7 | |
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Denner (0)
Active User  Posts: 1,217 Registered: Mar 03, '07 Location: Denmark |
If anybody here join Incredible Pass it's their own fault - that place is probably the most "warned-against" site at PU. "I don't drink anymore - I freeze it, and eat it like a popcicle" | |
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| 12-22-08 08:28am - 5844 days | #8 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
The fact that mbaya asked if there were other warnings form PU and TBP about reprehensible sites demonstrates exactly WHY TBP/PU should have some sort of blacklist or red flag system working. The information should be readily available without having to search through everything to find it. I am sure a number of you. like badandy, disagree with this. Mbaya, JayG and myself may well be in the minority on this one. But at least this thread does provide a service of sorts. If anyone knows of any really bad sites I hope they will add them to this thread. At least that will help in some way. Anyone who is starting off as new to the internet and subscribes to a rogue site, may well be put off subscribing to another. Eventually they will find free download services and use these rather than get ripped off again. So I believe this sort of thing needs to be highlighted rather than the okay all the information is available all you have to do is look attitude. That sort of thing is far easier for all you experts who know everything, but far more difficult for novices. I accept we 3 may be in the minority, but I have a personal hope this thread will be used continually as a warning. | |
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| 12-22-08 09:12am - 5844 days | #9 | |
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Cybertoad (0)
Disabled User  Posts: 2,158 Registered: Jan 01, '08 Location: Wash |
Hmm a black list is a dangerous place to place ourselves in. Legally if you are saying a site no matter how true you feel it is is bad and ripping ppl off you have to be careful how you do it. In a forum we can say it sucks, but if PU puts a you suck list now they are opening them selves up for law suites depending on how its listed. Dont get me wrong would be nice, but PU is a business not a private list therefore you run the risk of affending others they may want to do business with or scare off potentials that want no part of a bashing list. And getting sued. This would need to be seperate from PU to work. Just my opinion. Since 2007 | |
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| 12-22-08 09:13am - 5844 days | #10 | |
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mbaya (0)
Suspended Posts: 891 Registered: Jul 07, '08 Location: new jersey |
Allelitepass is also in the category of those to stay away from. There are no reviews, but three very negative comments. | |
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| 12-22-08 09:33am - 5844 days | #11 | |
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mbaya (0)
Suspended Posts: 891 Registered: Jul 07, '08 Location: new jersey |
Adultfriendfinder has gotten into trouble with the FTC for leaving spyware. You can read more at http://www.bestsecuritytips.com/news+article.storyid+419.htm. | |
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| 12-22-08 09:42am - 5844 days | #12 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
Okay call it a Red Flag rather than blacklist. All it needs to do is point out the truth. You don't even need to say these sites try to deliberatley trick you. All you need to do is have a list of sites which have questionable practices. Tell the truth, then let everyone make up their own mind. The really bad ones profit due to lack of information and ignorance by us, the customers. They profit from us not knowing what their practices are. All the Red Flag thing needs to do is point out EXACTLY what these sites do and how they operate. If they have the trick of pre signing you up to other sites on their sign up, then point this out, along with all the questionable practices. Another thing is, this is the internet. Some of the sites operate in a very grey area anyway. It would take a lot for a site to sue. If they even tried, it would throw open their policies and attempted trickery to everyone. There is a big difference between informing people and saying "don't join," anyway. I am merely saying tell the truth and tell it openly. I support freedom of information. A lot of power can come from freedom of information. Take the profitability away from the garbage sites, the profitablility they get due to customers' ignorance. Let the money go to the decent sites. This benefits everyone. The easier and more accessible this information is, the better. It's no good saying all the information is out there, because people don't know where to look. This is not just something that benefits those ripped off customers, it is something that benefits everyone, including TBP, the legit sites, and of course, us. But I can sense it isn't going to happen. Most of you probably don't want something like this. For me it would be the single most important thing that TBP or PU ever does. Edited on Dec 22, 2008, 09:49am | |
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| 12-22-08 11:09am - 5844 days | #13 | |
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Cybertoad (0)
Disabled User Posts: 2,158 Registered: Jan 01, '08 Location: Wash |
LAW 101 CYBERTOAD STYLE ! Hi Squirrel ;-) Dont get me wrong , I totally agree that would be nice to have a list. I spent two years in college studying law, and was involved in business law about 6 years before going into Drug counseling. WHAT MAY SEEM RIGHT IS NOT ALWAYS LEGAL IS RULE NUMBER 10 IN LAW. I can tell you with certainty its not what you call a black list its what the list of any kind does. These are companies we are talking about as sucky as they may be. Thery are not for the public abuse, by doing so we open ourselves up huge. (this here is a private forum) Let me make a case here. In Los Angeles, there was a show called Fight Back, where the motto was ( dont let anyone rip you off) they reviewed products and said whther "they" believed they were true. They were sued and went off the air. Notice I said the word "reviewed" and they believed not proved? And as in one business entidy ? They said whether you sucked or not using others help as well. Not once did they say it was one person opinion. If you want to stand on the corner and say George Bush sucks eggs you can legally. The public has that right. You want to stand on the corner though and oh say, he's a child molester you will get sued most likely and if you stand on the corner and say, that Joes Porn site is a rip off and had bad practices and say that its the truth. You will get sued. However if in a review process like PU, you give and opinion on your own without ( PU ) giving you the idea to say bad stuff then you alone can say they suck. The same way if you call a cop and fucking ass hole your going to jail in many places, you say to him I think in my opinion your and fucking ass hole he can't touch you. See its not whether or where you say it but HOW! And making a list soley to target another sites wrong doings of any kind is a bad idea. Moreover if another company is doing it like PU setting up the use of other to bash a site is not good. I agree and if someone made a top 10 bad sites and said it was their sole opinion then great. But if you are making a list for other to bash that site woow, id be careful. Take a look at the court systems ppl being sued for far less then you propose. I like the idea, but I also am saying this because I dont want PU shut don, if I think they suck I will say it here, a review or comment. Cybertoad. Since 2007 Edited on Dec 22, 2008, 11:14am | |
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| 12-22-08 11:20am - 5844 days | #14 | |
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mbaya (0)
Suspended Posts: 891 Registered: Jul 07, '08 Location: new jersey |
Point of curiosity. If TBP posts, as it did on the Incredible Pass page, that they do not do business with them, is that ok? If TBP posts a warning about prechecked cross sells is that ok? If TBP posted a list of sites that it does not do business with is that ok? If TBP posted a list of sites with prechecked cross sells is that ok? If TBP had a listing of sites that have at least some specified number not yet determined of complaints posted, would that be ok? | |
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| 12-22-08 11:37am - 5844 days | #15 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
I have had many a fight with people over the years in and out of the courts so I know what cybertoad is saying. I agree it is very mch a case of how you say things. This is why I explicitly stated that you can make a list that tells the truth. If sites automatically tick the box that buys you in to other sights it isn't opinion. It is fact. You can say just that. You can also say that you do not like that practice. There are many things about America I like, but thankfully there is one thing about the UK I do like. That is the way the media can stand up for the small guy to protect him against unscrupulous companies. It is why I like Channel 4 and The BBC. Now this doesn't always happen, quite often because of vested interests. I prefer to go on facts separate from opinion. The way some sites operate is not opinion, it is fact. Whether you like it or not, is opinion. Private Eye got sued on many occasions for calling crooks, crooks. Now there is a difference between that sort of thing, and making a list of companies with dubious practices and what they are. These sites are supposed to be review sites after all. You can even make a list of sites with practices you do not like. If those things cannot be done, then quite frankly I would have no faith in anything printed here. If it can be done but people on TBP do not want to do it, because it costs them money, now THAT I can understand and would sympathise much more with. | |
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| 12-22-08 12:33pm - 5844 days | #16 | |
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Rick (0)
Suspended  Posts: 401 Registered: Jan 05, '07 Location: Las Vegas, NV |
Just did a quick scan of this thread, seems that a few really find this to be an important issue while others don't see the need. We've considered this idea in the past, but we've always felt it would do more harm than good, from where we stand at least. Couple points: I won't get into legal or not legal, it this country at least (US), it makes little difference. For sure we would deal with potential lawsuits no matter how it's worded if a big porn company was on this "list". Maybe just threats, maybe they follow through. Either way, a lot of these companies have huge accounts, full time lawyers on staff, and won't hesitate to do whatever is necessary to defend their image/reputation. We're smalltime compared to them and it would be very costly (time and money) to defend. Determining how sites would be included would be a nightmare. It's already difficult when users submit convtroversial comments/reviews that are questionable. Example... I've seen a few comments where users blame a web-site on crashing or infecting their systems. Was that user technically knowledgable enough to make such a claim? If we added a "list", would that be something we would take seriously? So assume we only include "proof" of unethical standards. Who's going to verify this to be true? Sometimes the unethical practices are so confusing and difficult to point to one specific company. What determines unethical? Are pre-checked cross-sales? What about annoying things like clicking through ads in order to cancel, or say requiring to call? If it's a billing issue, that will cost more money to "test" and sometimes many weeks or months for false charges to show. Another important and edcuational point is to understand our goals as a company and resource. Our goal isn't to play "fight back" or "punish the wrong". Our goal is to offer information and resources to help the industry (on both sides, consumer and owners) while building a profitable company. It's important we keep our indepedence as much as possible, stick to verified facts (published by us) and give users the resources as needed to offer them a strong voice. As you've seen with Incredible Pass, there are instances where we simply "pull the plug" on a company. This doesn't mean we're accusing them of anything, but it does mean we prefer not to do business for one reason or another. Either way, it's better we not make any specific accusations. This is something new recently btw and it may or may not be a permanent ban. In this mastter, I believe its better for everyone that we stay as independent as possible and stick to what we do best. If we start crossing "that line", we steer away from providing other "more valuable" resources and possibly get ourselves in deeper holes that benefit nobody. The Best Porn - Ultimate Consumer Guide to Porn Porn Users - Porn Review by the People Ranks.com, Inc., Chief/Founder Edited on Dec 22, 2008, 01:07pm | |
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| 12-22-08 12:43pm - 5844 days | #17 | |
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Cybertoad (0)
Disabled User Posts: 2,158 Registered: Jan 01, '08 Location: Wash |
Largely its intent. 1. can they post they do not do business with them? Yes . Can they say because they are rip offs no. 2. Can they tell you about pre-checked cross sells? If there is fact they do so as in clones etc. But you can not say they do it to mislead. 3. If TBP had a listing of sites that have at least some specified number not yet determined of complaints posted, would that be ok? No they can not post aligations or what they think others have done. if they site in question is found guilty of a crime and sentenced you can say they did what they did because now its fact. If I say in a review I felt ripped off thats fine. If PU says its members feel ripped off by them no, thats speculation on their part and they can not guess at a fact. See the pattern that I am trying to get accross? Thanks Cybertoad Since 2007 | |
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| 12-22-08 12:44pm - 5844 days | #18 | |
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Wittyguy (0)
Active User  Posts: 1,138 Registered: Feb 04, '08 Location: Left Coast, USA |
The main problem with "black lists" and "red flag" lists is that people don't quite know how to phrase their distrust to keep them from getting into trouble. To say "this site is total crap and should be avoided" is difficult for a company to do because 1) It involves business libel which has a lower standard of proof than our usual American first amendment liberties; 2) If the site makes changes and the black list is notified of the changes and doesn't keep the list updated in accordance with the updates they can still end up in hot water; 3) Libel laws vary by country so what is fine in the US may not pass muster in Europe (not good in a digital world); and, 4) Even if you are legally in the clear sometimes businesses just get the lawyers going to make a point and to financially drain another business (and Rick has big payments to make on his Ferrari and Malibu Beach House, Barbie optional, so he doesn't want to endanger that ;). So, I don't blame PU/TBP for not going this route. I think we're stuck with expressing our beefs here in the Forum and in our reviews/comments. | |
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| 12-22-08 12:48pm - 5844 days | #19 | |
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Cybertoad (0)
Disabled User Posts: 2,158 Registered: Jan 01, '08 Location: Wash |
And there goes the problem, the truth, in law; the truth is fact, and the fact is whats proven. And in a forum site this list or not can not prove intent of the site nor its downfalls and why. I love the idea too but wow that would create a huge mess. Since 2007 | |
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| 12-22-08 12:49pm - 5844 days | #20 | |
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Cybertoad (0)
Disabled User Posts: 2,158 Registered: Jan 01, '08 Location: Wash |
woo hoo my 200th post happy birthday to me,. Since 2007 | |
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| 12-22-08 12:55pm - 5844 days | #21 | |
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mbaya (0)
Suspended Posts: 891 Registered: Jul 07, '08 Location: new jersey |
I for one can live without any official or unofficial lists that state any specifics. However, going back to something I asked about earlier, what sites besides Incredible Pass does TBP/PU not do business with? Edited on Dec 22, 2008, 01:00pm | |
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| 12-22-08 12:57pm - 5844 days | #22 | |
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Khan (0)
Suspended  Posts: 1,737 Registered: Jan 05, '07 Location: USA |
ROFL ... you say you can do w/out a list and then ask us to provide a list of other sites. Just check a site's TBP/PU listing before signing up and you'll know of any warnings we're aware of. The big red notice is kinda hard to miss. Former PornUsers Senior Administrator Now at: MyPorn.com "To get your ideas across use small words, big ideas, and short sentences."-John Henry Patterson | |
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| 12-22-08 12:58pm - 5844 days | #23 | |
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Khan (0)
Suspended Posts: 1,737 Registered: Jan 05, '07 Location: USA |
If I might ask ... What would be the real (perceived) value of a compiled list? As it is, TBP/PU provides caveats on a site's listing when we're aware of issues our users see as bad. i.e. pre-checked join boxes, limited trials, etc. If a user checks the listing (TBP & PU) before joining, they will be aware of any shortcomings that have been brought to light. So, other than to satisfy some Users' curiosity, what is the extra value in having a list Former PornUsers Senior Administrator Now at: MyPorn.com "To get your ideas across use small words, big ideas, and short sentences."-John Henry Patterson | |
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| 12-22-08 01:03pm - 5844 days | #24 | |
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mbaya (0)
Suspended Posts: 891 Registered: Jul 07, '08 Location: new jersey |
Asking for those you do not do business with is not asking you to state why. I don't need to know why, just if Incredible Pass is the only one. If you don't think this would be helpful, please explain. I am not asking for a list to be maintained permanently. Edited on Dec 22, 2008, 01:21pm | |
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| 12-22-08 01:23pm - 5844 days | #25 | |
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Rick (0)
Suspended Posts: 401 Registered: Jan 05, '07 Location: Las Vegas, NV |
Nude In Public (and it's company sites) are the only other company with this status right now. The Best Porn - Ultimate Consumer Guide to Porn Porn Users - Porn Review by the People Ranks.com, Inc., Chief/Founder | |
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| 12-22-08 01:34pm - 5844 days | #26 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
Well in a way I don't blame TBP for not wanting to get involved. Most people don't want to get involved, where money is the bottom line. My avatar should be grey but is permanently red because I am permanently ANGRY. It is very much an individual's choice whether to get involved with lawyers/solicitors. I have very good and very expensive ones (along with other professional people), in order to stop people fu**ing with me. I am lucky enough to be able to afford their services. Some can't and get pushed around. It's generally the fear itself that stops people standing up. Many times a solicitor has told me "well we can threaten them, but it is just a threat, it's a very grey area. So all we can hope is it does the trick." With poor people this quite often works because they can't afford and don't want to afford good professional advice. Toad has pointed out these grey areas. He does talk like a solicitor/lawyer. I have had one or two tell me "well we don't want to do this," or "you shouldn't do that." I have got rid of them. I hire them to do what I want them to do. Yes, they can give me advice but I pay them to do what I want them to do, not what they want me to do. Yes, they do give me advice for my own good. I understand that. I have had some pleading with me to give up a battle because it might cost me thousands. I've gone ahead anyway and been delighted if it cost me thousands as long as it cost my opponents more. Toad you do talk like a fu**ing lawyer. But you also come over as a nice chap, as do a lot of people I deal with. Because you know the law you are aware of the grey areas, and in many senses are more afraid of these than normal humans. Just like a doctor is aware of the hundred things that pain in his chest or arm can be. It's the fear of these grey areas that worries me about America, even more than Europe. It stops people doing things. The result is bland, anodyne, tasteless, boring, average, crap produced by bland, anodyne, tasteless, boring, average crappy people. It means the talented rarely seem to get a look in. It means truly objective, incisive criticism is far too rarely produced. It means lots of other things but you get my drift. I do like Americans. I just hate the boring bland shit that comes from America. It's a shame the sort of shit (product, politicians, and media) that represents America. I have American friends and it does not do them justice. I am probably an angry, arrogant, bastard, but I do realise that everyone chooses their own way of doing things. It doesn't surprise me that TBP would choose that easy path. Most people do. I can't honestly say that my way is any better or makes me any happier. It is just my mentality. It is my path. When Jimmy Connors played Wimbledon nearly 30 years ago, a commentator chose him to win becaue "he is the only competitor who would cut someone's throat to win." I would more than happily literally do that without a moments regret...if I could get away with it. No remorse, no regret. I think my representatives now know my mentality and work accordingly. But most people just want an easy life. | |
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| 12-22-08 01:42pm - 5844 days | #27 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
You obviously didn't read my post. That is most unlike you. I have already answered this in fact, in two posts. It is the bits where I said that a ready to hand list means quick and easy access for novices and newbies so they don't get ripped off...don't get burned so end up downloading for free...experts know all the stuff already, newbies don't...etc. It would be a special place where people can be sure of finding instant access to information. Checking the dodgy sites in one place, is far more useful because even some of the relatively experienced hands here don't know all the dodgy ones. I have already gone into the implications and benefits of this for everyone. ...and yes I am sounding pompous. Edited on Dec 22, 2008, 01:46pm | |
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| 12-22-08 01:55pm - 5844 days | #28 | |
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Khan (0)
Suspended Posts: 1,737 Registered: Jan 05, '07 Location: USA |
No, I caught that you said that but can't see a list being of more value than actually checking the listing of a site you're thinking to join. Hopefully, users here will make a habit of always checking a listing for any site they're considering paying money too. If they do, they'll not only see any warnings we can give but also any fellow PU's can offer. Based on this, they should be able to make sound decisions on what sites to join. If the site is not one they're considering joining, what do they care if it's dodgy or not? Other than curiosity? From my perspective, a compiled list would only be something extra to maintain and serve no real purpose. I think it's a smarter use of resources to spend our time maintaining the listings. You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion w/out any hard feelings from me. BTW, the point about legal threats is very valid. As it is we get threats just because TBP (pr PU's) publish unflattering Reviews. Sure, we might win any protracted legal battle but who needs those headaches? Remember, it's not like we're keeping quiet about sites with shady practices ... that info is on the listings... it's just we're not compiling a list. But we do understand we can't please all of the people all of the time. Former PornUsers Senior Administrator Now at: MyPorn.com "To get your ideas across use small words, big ideas, and short sentences."-John Henry Patterson | |
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| 12-22-08 02:01pm - 5844 days | #29 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
I do understand where you are coming from. I appreciate that you agree to disagree. I also think you make valid points. | |
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| 12-22-08 02:36pm - 5844 days | #30 | |
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Denner (0)
Active User Posts: 1,217 Registered: Mar 03, '07 Location: Denmark |
Though I somewhat like the idea with a red or a yellow flag - or whatever - it's not the way. When problems with certain sites appear the best is still warnings and discussions on the specific matter - it has worked fine up til now... "I don't drink anymore - I freeze it, and eat it like a popcicle" | |
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| 12-22-08 04:23pm - 5844 days | #31 | |
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RagingBuddhist (0)
Disabled User  Posts: 893 Registered: Jan 23, '07 |
Another possible red flag? It's been a while since I'd tried to get onto the One Pass For All network, but I do recall not being able to get past their login page and none of the emails I sent for resolution to the problem were ever answered. Had to get a refund through billing. Maybe someone else here has tried signing up there and can back me up on this. Sarcasm is a body's natural defense against stupidity. | |
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| 12-22-08 05:52pm - 5844 days | #32 | |
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mbaya (0)
Suspended Posts: 891 Registered: Jul 07, '08 Location: new jersey |
This network under another name is listed in TBP as having free trials. In 2001 they were fined by the FTC. You can read about it here http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2001/04/43126. I see some of these sites still offering free trials. Are they run honestly now? I know I don't know. If you have had any good or bad experiences please post here or on the websites. | |
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| 12-22-08 06:16pm - 5844 days | #33 | |
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Drooler (0)
Disabled User Posts: 1,831 Registered: Mar 11, '07 Location: USA |
I appreciate Rick (reply #16) and Khan (esp. reply #28) going to the trouble of explaining how "The List" would just be a big can of Death Worms. It's enough that the facts speak for themselves and that user opinions be taken as such. And even if we had "The List," people would still join sites, feel burned, and resent it. One more thing to consider: Imagine the "The List" coming into being, being legally challenged (the pitfalls already having been sufficiently explained by others), and then lawyer's costs and a settlement wiping TBP and PU off the web. Would it really have been worth it then? I wanted something new, so I left England for New England. Edited on Dec 22, 2008, 06:23pm | |
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| 12-22-08 06:52pm - 5844 days | #34 | |
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badandy400 (0)
Active User Posts: 869 Registered: Mar 02, '08 Location: ohio |
Again, all these things can be cone simply be reading the reviews. I am not 100% against a blacklist, but i do believe it may cause more harm than good. The problem with reporting offically about the precheck tick boxes is that the webmaster can change this very easily. Also, it can be the payment processor doing this. If say CCBill has this, but Epoch does not than the site gets a bad name for something it did not do and not everyone will run into. We all know to check the sign up pages from top to bottom. I truly believe the best thing we and/or TBP can do is to post an "Awareness Page" that is easy to access. This page can detail what has been seen and done, and what things a user can do to watch out for themselves. People need to be able to watch their own backs. I can just see it now, someone comes one here with fire ants up there ass because they got ripped off by a site that was not on the blacklist. All around it spells out problems. It would be nice if it could work, but I think we should stick to what we have. Besides, I really do not care if "Big Gay Bob" is ripping people off, so I do not need to see it. However, I do care if FTV Girls is ripping people off because I am thinking of rejoining them, so because of this interest I will be looking over all the comments and reviews. So if anyone has had any issues with them I will read about it and be informed before joining. "For example, badandy400 has taken it upon himself to become the one man Library of Congress for porn with a collection that surely will be in Guinness Book of World Records some day." ~Toadsith~ PU Interview | |
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| 12-22-08 07:01pm - 5844 days | #35 | |
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pat362 (0)
Active User  Posts: 3,575 Registered: Jan 23, '07 Location: canada |
Although I could see where a black list or red flag might make it easier for newbies to avoid being taken in. Isn't that the main reason for the success of PU? I mean if you are interested in a site that is not yet reviewed by TBP or PU, then email TBP and see if they are scheduled to review it. If there are reviews of sites and you want more info then was available in the review then email the reviewer your question. In my experience if a site is good the review are good and if it'sad then so are the reviews. Long live the Brown Coats. | |
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| 12-23-08 06:28am - 5843 days | #36 | |
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mbaya (0)
Suspended Posts: 891 Registered: Jul 07, '08 Location: new jersey |
When I signed up for meatmembers.com I did not see the prechecked boxes. Before I go further, TBP does not mention these boxes and I verified they are still there today. I signed up inadvertantly for allnetworkpass.com and allelitepass.com. I immediately cancelled the trial subscriptions, but was billed anyway for monthly ones when the trial was supposed to have ended. Customer service was belligerent and sarcastic and told me no way was I entitled to a refund. I told them I was getting a lawyer. Their response-just try to sue us. When I told them I wanted a refund or else I would charge them back, they relented, but a week later. I wrote to meatmembers.com and explained to them what happened, but they washed their hands of it all. Eventually I was refunded, but this is no way to treat customers. | |
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| 12-23-08 09:00am - 5843 days | #37 | |
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williamj (0)
Active User Posts: 102 Registered: Sep 29, '07 Location: usa |
I don't like the sound of a Blacklist. PU does a good job blasting junk sites. Will | |
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| 12-23-08 10:36am - 5843 days | #38 | |
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Khan (0)
Suspended Posts: 1,737 Registered: Jan 05, '07 Location: USA |
Not sure when you signed up but I notice the Editors have that warning up now. So you know ... Adding the warning for pre-checked cross-sells is a fairly recent addition to the TBP/PU listings. As such, it will be a while before all the listings are updated. As we become aware of site using this practice or we find them while doing site updates, we'll get them added to the the listings. Former PornUsers Senior Administrator Now at: MyPorn.com "To get your ideas across use small words, big ideas, and short sentences."-John Henry Patterson | |
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| 12-23-08 10:56am - 5843 days | #39 | |
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Cybertoad (0)
Disabled User Posts: 2,158 Registered: Jan 01, '08 Location: Wash |
Hi everyone, Going to play the devils advocate here after all the responses ppl gave. The topic says unethical websites. Based on whoms critera though are we talking? We didnt say illegal and I doubt anyone is hinting to much that teh acts are illegal. I recently bought a car, the man came over after haggling and I got 4.9% on my SUV. So I filled out my paperwork declined all the extra like a good consumer. I get home and a month later my Credit union sends me a coutesy notice saying my account is part of the auto-pay for the SUv. I sai to myself hold off I never said that to anyone , never ever was that the deal. Awwww, but the small print on my contract says that auto-pay customers are entited to a .5% extra discount. I didnt know that either its hidden real small. Of course who gonna argue over getting more off. My thing was they haggled and made me think they got me that lower interest be dealingw hat they did was bait and switch me. BUT.... I signed the paper so therefore its legal. Unethical, car salesman ? LOL Well perhaps they can say they did what I was asking them for a great deal. In the case of websites, we agree most of the time by not seeing that small box located behind the trees. But its there though. You guys ever see the commercial to FREE CREDIT REPORT .COM? They were sued because they said on TV it was free only after signing up in the process they say the free report is based on you signing up for something else there. Now the ad say so. Butdidnt always. Again these are the legal issues, not ethical ones . If they are doing something illegal then thats different, but if they use tricky advertising not allot you can do but be careful. TBP takes the right approach they do not say they suck, they say hey look they have extra boxes you might want to look for. And thats how you play the game my friends. Since 2007 | |
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| 12-23-08 11:20am - 5843 days | #40 | |
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mbaya (0)
Suspended Posts: 891 Registered: Jul 07, '08 Location: new jersey |
The warning for meatmembers.com was not up when I made this post. I checked first. Of course we should uncheck prechecked boxes, but my complaint was that I cancelled the trials and was still billed. An ethical site would have credited me immediately and not threaten to blacklist me. No customer service on any site should ever be sarcastic and dare us to sue them. I feel that this is unethical. As far as using the term unethical, I did not want to get into the topic of illegal. That can vary from location to location, let alone that it has a precise meaning that we may not be able to prove here, only in a court of law. Unethical must be a matter of opinion and it is not objective. However, I do feel strongly that we should all complain about what we feel is wrong. How we should complain was the topic I initiated. Edited on Dec 23, 2008, 11:27am | |
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| 12-23-08 11:43am - 5843 days | #41 | |
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mbaya (0)
Suspended Posts: 891 Registered: Jul 07, '08 Location: new jersey |
Excuse me for staying too long on the soapbox. This thread started as a result of a problem I had with germangoogirls.com. As a member, I was looking around on the website to see what the content was. I clicked on bonus sites. I immediately got the message "confirmation email to follow". I think any PU'er would be surprised, as well as upset, to see that they had just signed up for a website. Further, there was no mention of the price so I could even make an informed decision. This goes way beyond caveat emptor as I did not even know that I was buying anything. Unethical? Hell yes. Illegal? Maybe. I am not suing them so I don't really care. However, I want others to benefit from this knowledge so they will not do the same. | |
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| 12-23-08 12:02pm - 5843 days | #42 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
No you're not, you're fired. | |
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| 12-23-08 12:19pm - 5843 days | #43 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
It needs someone to be on the soapbox. Toad goes into the law and makes some good points but he's a lawyer at heart, not a human being. Now here's my law. We shouldn't be careful about them or afraid of them, they should be afraid of us. My law - if you rip me off or try to screw me in any way I'm coming for you, you fu**er. This is how we should be thinking as consumers. It doesn't matter what we are consuming or who we are dealing with. My law is, if someone does mess around with me I cause them as much aggravation, pain, time, and cost as possible. If there's no way of getting my money back or if I've been badly treated, by god I'm going to spend as much time and money to cost them as much time and money as I possibly can. TBP is an irrelevance here. They may be gone in 6 months or 12 months or here forever. It doesn't matter. They have already stated their position anyway, and customers here have to respect that. What does matter is that somewhere there will always be a place for complaints and a soapbox where you can speak out, and it is so important to do this. They will never be able to stifle free speech entirely. By being a real pain you can have the satisfaction of really getting back at someone who did you wrong. As I think, Monahan pointed out, there are a lot of sites out there who are dealing fairly with people, and the sort of dodgy crap some of them try to pull just wont cut it nowadays. There will always be rip off artists. But our job as consumers is to make it HELL for those sort of people. Ring them, write to them, email them, complain to credit card companies, get a lawyer, post wherever you can what they are doing. I'm talking anything here, not just porn sites or the internet. Just cause as much trouble as you can to those who try to rip you off. I don't care what the law says on whether they intended to rip me off or not, if I consider they did. That doesn't count in my law. F**k with me and I f**k with you. Edited on Dec 23, 2008, 03:02pm | |
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| 12-23-08 07:29pm - 5843 days | #44 | |
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Cybertoad (0)
Disabled User Posts: 2,158 Registered: Jan 01, '08 Location: Wash |
Mmmm fried squirrel is good eatin :-) Let me guess a frog leg joke is the rebuttle lol Actually Squirrly , I am not a lawer at heart I am a person whoms has been screwed over and over and took to learn the law to avoid it and help others avoid it. Your law is why ppl get screwed, I agree with your points . But this is not a life we can hang ppl because we do not agree with them. But to the ending of my posting on this subject, personaly I never give my own power away to another by allowing them to make me waste my time chasing them down. Because then they own you far after the act that pissed you off. I am Cybertoad and I am addict/achoholic. Trust me I gave my will over long ago and let only one thing run my life, when I run it things go bad quickly. I am not sure if we have any friends of bill in here or not but many would get my point. But again its just my point I am making lol Since 2007 Edited on Dec 23, 2008, 07:36pm | |
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| 12-24-08 06:21am - 5842 days | #45 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
No no you got me wrong. It isn't my law, I hate the law, mainly because it does not represent the people. It represents the minority who are in power. My view is if you don't like the law then break it - just don't get caught. I think you must have trained well, because you really DO talk like a lot of the people who have represented me in the past. I agree with a lot of the points that you make. It's just one of my points is, we shouldn't always know so much about the law, or the consquences, or fear so much, that it stops us from acting morally (depending on what our morals are). Everyone has their own law and their own morals. I believe just as much in acting on those. American law really has got ridiculous. It is time people stood up and put a stop to what is going on in America. While there is fear about the law, or offending someone every time they say something even mildly critical, or individual and incisive, America will continue to produce the garbage it does. As I pointed out earlier, this definitely does not do the American people justice. Unfortunately, as always, you cannot change things without media support. Since very rich people own the media, I am sure it suits them to have a situation where criticism is more than a little stifled I can also understand why TBP has to be very cautious. they are in business and want to make money. This is what holds most people back from having principles, so I don't blame them one bit. Do I trust them? No of course not, but they seem about the best there is at the moment, although things may change. Edited on Dec 24, 2008, 07:59am | |
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| 12-26-08 09:18am - 5840 days | #46 | |
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pat362 (0)
Active User Posts: 3,575 Registered: Jan 23, '07 Location: canada |
I didn't really want to start a new thread because I think the subject of precheck or cross sales as come up in a few threads already. If anyone is curious you can read the entire article here: http://www.adultfyi.com/read.php?ID=31990. Basically this means that any website that currently accepts Mastercard transactions, and has a precheck boxe on their join page may be fined if they do not remove those precheck boxes. Mastercard is tired of getting complaints from customer who join a website and then discover that they are members of other sites because they did not notice the precheck box. Long live the Brown Coats. | |
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| 12-26-08 10:04am - 5840 days | #47 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
This is brilliant! It goes back to what I have been saying about causing as much trouble as you possibly can to those who try to mislead you, or rip you off. Time is money. Cause so much fuss, that it costs other people money, and eventually something will be done. Don't cause trouble and you will be continually ripped off. | |
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| 01-15-09 12:15pm - 5820 days | #48 | |
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mbaya (0)
Suspended Posts: 891 Registered: Jul 07, '08 Location: new jersey |
Unfortunately I feel that Cabo Entertainment, a network, may be a problem that we should be aware of. Check the comments about the various network sites, and members have complaints about billing, an inability to cancel, etc. Not a good sign at all. | |
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| 01-15-09 05:41pm - 5820 days | #49 | |
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williamj (0)
Active User Posts: 102 Registered: Sep 29, '07 Location: usa |
My best advice is to research PU and its sister site. I never join before I do some research. Also if it's a site that you can't find any information on make sure you check all the small spelling to avoid other charges. If you run into CC issues don't wait cancel the card ASAP and fight the charges and get the paperwork flowing with the credit card bank. Document everything from emails to phone calls about the site. Get names and phone extensions. And do us all a favor and make comments or do a review, we all appreciate it. Will | |
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| 01-15-09 06:30pm - 5820 days | #50 | |
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mbaya (0)
Suspended Posts: 891 Registered: Jul 07, '08 Location: new jersey |
I made a posting today as a reply to one members problems with a website. It is from sad experiences that I have learned how to spot some potential problems. Here is what I posted: I take it from your comment that the billing company was neither CCBill nor Epoch. Reputable websites usually use these two. Disreputable sites get kicked off and have to use other billing companies. If you see something like Jettis Int, that should be a red flag. I am sure not all sites that use second tier billing sites are a problem, but this is not a good sign. Another red flag here is a free trial. Nothing is really free. The explanation is yet another red flag. The monthly rate is $39.95. Now they have an incentive to not cancel the "free" trial. Yet another red flag is prechecked cross sells. While not disreputable, it is a sign that the site is not looking out for their members, but for their own bottom line. BEWARE! I would never sign up for a site where I discovered these things. | |
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