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| Porn Users Forum » Advanced economics |
| 1-27 of 27 Posts | Page 1 |
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| 01-03-14 03:33am - 4006 days | Original Post - #1 | |
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jook (0)
Active User  Posts: 325 Registered: Dec 22, '13 Location: jersey city |
Advanced economics I'm glad I found this site to ask the questions I've always been too timid to ask. And since I have a snow day and nothing better to do, I have some time to ask what is probably a dumb question. I've always been fascinated by various aspects of the porn industry. Some of the rituals, for lack of better term, as well as some business aspects are incomprehensible to me. Apropos to this site, I don't understand the economics of porn sites, at least the ones where you download movies. They all seem to work basically the same regarding fees. You join for $30 per month or thereabouts and you agree to recurring membership for the same $30. You can opt out immediately of the recurring membership after joining, but you have no choice at the time you join. I'm guessing this is a credit card regulation or some other governmental or quasi governmental regulation. When I join a site, the first thing I do is cancel my membership so it's not recurring. I've never had a problem in keeping my first month's membership. Again, I'm guessing this is a credit card regulation or the site owners simply don't want any credit card disputes whether they're right or wrong. I started thinking about this about a year ago. I joined Trike Patrol, an amateur filipino site, which I loved to pieces. I liked it so much that I downloaded every movie on the site within the first month. So, I cancelled my membership. I got an email from someone there, seemingly one of the owners, asking why I was canceling. I told him the truth and I suggested changing the business model so one doesn't have to pay $30 every month for only a few videos - they upload 1 video a week. He was very candid in his reply and said they did try several different business models and the one in place, the industry standard, was the one that worked best for them. I wondered, how could this be? Isn't everyone like me? I don't consider downloading an entire site's videos as fast as I could an obsession; it was simply a matter of economics. The faster I downloaded, the less I spent. Doesn't everyone think like that? Apparently not, otherwise the industry standard wouldn't be the industry standard, haha. Since joining this place, I've become more familiar with this seemingly multi-trazillion dollar industry. Some places limit you to how much you can download in a day. I was pissed when I joined such a site - the equivalent of about 10 HD videos a day. This did not fit in with my "standard." But it was only one site that I ever encountered this, and the site sucked anyway. My apologies for the long post. But like I said, I have nothing better to do at the moment, haha. Please bear with me if I am wrong in any of my statements or assumptions as I am not overly experienced with the subject. However, I am very curious to hear thoughts from others. Also, if there are any recommended books on the economics of porn, I'd be very interested. Last, I'd like to thank the moderators and members for making this site incredibly informing and entertaining. | |
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| 01-03-14 04:58am - 4006 days | #2 | |
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Parsnip (0)
Active User Posts: 39 Registered: Oct 29, '13 Location: Atlanta, Georgia |
They are relying on inertia/ignorance. People forget or can't be bothered to cancel, or think that if they cancel access will stop immediately so they wait until the end and either forget it at least end up getting charged for another month. Also a lot of people may not by quite so obsessed and don't download a complete site immediately! The thing to remember about the economics of porn is that they are a complete disaster. Hardly anyone is making any money, many studios have closed and there is a fraction of the porn made now than a few years ago. Most sites are just squeezing out what they can and hanging in there. The reasons for this come down to piracy and the porn business's response to it. Rather than reaching out to new markets (who are less likely to know how to pirate) by producing better and better quality material and making membership worthwhile by creating sites that are real communities, most porn companies have just tried to produce higher volumes of ever nastier and more brutal material to appeal to existing customers - who are exactly the type of people who will pirate. It's a business model that has comprehensively failed - I read a James Deen interview recently where he said he didn't think there will be any professional porn in 5 years time. Given how repulsive and abusive most of it has become, I can't say that upsets me much. | |
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| 01-03-14 06:50am - 4006 days | #3 | |
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Capn (0)
Active User  Posts: 1,740 Registered: Sep 05, '09 Location: Near the Beer! |
My take on it is that it should be about quality rather than quantity.  I would be much more willing to repeat a subscription if there are steady quality updates.  That said there isn't a lot of new material in my niche anyway.  Cap'n.  Admiral of the PU Hindenburg. 2009 PU AwardHilarious Post of the Year 2010 PU Award ( I would have preferred it to be Helpful Post of the Year for Guys who Hate 'Retail Therapy' ) :0/ Sanity is in the eye of the Beholder! | |
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| 01-03-14 07:51am - 4006 days | #4 | |
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jook (0)
Active User Posts: 325 Registered: Dec 22, '13 Location: jersey city |
Steady and quality are the key in my opinion. The example I used, Trike Patrol, only had 1 update a week which was not worth $30 a month. I'm willing to wait a year, pay $30 and get 52 videos. Parsnip, your comments about the industry are interesting. I had no idea. As for the sites relying on peoples' forgetfulness and/or fear of canceling immediately, I didn't take that into consideration. I forgot about the few times I forgot to cancel. However, since I check my finances daily, I caught it right away. I was given a refund with no questions asked. I don't think they're issuing a refund out of any sort of benevolence. It is probably against credit card regulations not to issue a refund for someone who cancels early enough not to receive any or much of a benefit. | |
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| 01-03-14 01:19pm - 4006 days | #5 | |
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biker (0)
Active User  Posts: 632 Registered: May 03, '08 Location: milwaukee, wi |
I have opted out before a second month, with no difficulties, several times. Most often it was because the content was not what I had hoped for. Most often I go to sites that have been around for some time and not only have the content I enjoy, but the quality. In those cases I will often stick around for a few months or even get a whole year because of the discount. The whole year is something I very seldom do. Most sites don't have the kind of volume that warrants the cost. Two or three months is all I need to download what I want. If a site has the content I want, but not the quantity, I will wait for them to grow, hoping they down close down before I join. I can't imagine porn disappearing entirely. The cream will float to the top. I'm guessing networks like DDF will out last most niche sites. They not only offer quantity, but variety and quality. I know the porn I like, but it does not have a large base and sites can't survive on so few customers, so I take what appeals to me and hope for a site that will meet my desires will show up. The one thing that I'm afraid will wreck porn is STD's. In sites with forums, I have read complaints about condom use, but look what dangers there are without them. I will accept a condom for the safety of the performers from STD's. My imagination is powerful enough to ignore a condom. In truth I'm into lesbian porn and the need for condoms doesn't show up, but female performers do both straight and lesbian and I want them safe. But how do you protect performers from their private lives. If they take risks outside the industry, outbreaks of STD's will occur. I suspect that is where the current outbreaks are starting. There is nothing the industry can do about a performer's private life. With thousands of performers, it only takes one to start a STD outbreak and that creates an environment for disaster. I hope they can keep the outbreaks few and that cures will be found for these dreadful diseases. Until then, the industry is going to hurt and performers I enjoy are at risk. My occasional rant is over. Warning Will Robinson | |
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| 01-03-14 02:29pm - 4006 days | #6 | |
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Wittyguy (0)
Active User  Posts: 1,138 Registered: Feb 04, '08 Location: Left Coast, USA |
For whatever reason, the $30 a month rate seems to be the cutoff mark for the porn industry. I read an article a few months back that said the industry has pretty much found out that this is the upper limit the average user will pay to join a site for a month and that most of the major players in the biz have found this to be true. My theory as to why this persists in the age of high speed internet is simply because it's the way it always has been. Like how much of the world operates, it's just easier to keep doing what you've always done especially once consumers get used to the concept. The online porn biz started out with monthly memberships so that's what you mostly still see. I've always thought there was more room for variable pricing (monthly membership, limited trials, expanded trials, pay per view, etc.) and I sort of thought more sites would be heading this direction by now. The main reason why this hasn't happened is because the big boys of porn don't do this. Why offer pay per view or multiple trial levels when you can get people coming back every few months or sign them up for long term reduced price deals. Most consumers of porn are "one and done" meaning they stick around for only a month or so and then don't come back. Because this is the realm of the average consumer (created in part because of what the average consumer expects) the porn sites have to optimize revenue by getting the most from these people. Thus, you're stuck with monthly memberships. While this is a pain for those who really like a site(s) and only want the recent updates recognize that you're in the minority. If I were a website owner and things were going OK financially I couldn't see the benefit in setting up a pay per view system (the cost of coding and site alterations, etc.) versus the payoff of getting a few extra members for a few $1 downloads when I know if they really like the site they'll be back in a few months to hand out money for the monthly membership. Porn is a relatively cheap commodity already (it costs more to see a movie in a theater and have some popcorn and a soda than it does to join most sites for a month) so it probably doesn't pay in both time and money for the site operators to be trying to suck up a few extra bucks a month when the current system seems to be working OK for them. It's probably going to take a good quality super site to shake up the current pricing paradigm and I don't see many leading the way at this point. Only once the big players move will the smaller sites follow along. | |
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| 01-03-14 06:06pm - 4005 days | #7 | ||
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
It's always way easier to sign up for something than it is to leave, and this is true outside of porn as well. Some gift cards will start automatically losing their value a certain time after they're activated. If you have ever done the 30 day trial of Amazon's Prime subscription it will automatically renew for the full annual period (at $80) if you don't cancel. I've forgotten to cancel a few subscriptions over the years, even for sites I really liked but had tired of or simply downloaded about as much as I could find hard drive space for. In an age of relatively affordable hard disk drives and fast connections more than a month of a site continuously starts to look like a waste of money.
Someone's making money, somewhere. The question is who and how far do you apply the label "porn industry," as the term "multibillion" gets thrown out a lot but without much explanation or evidence. What I've frequently read though is that a lot of profits go to non-adult cable and multimedia companies acting as distributors, or at least more than their prudish investors may know or want to know.  "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | ||
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| 01-03-14 06:24pm - 4005 days | #8 | ||
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
I've never heard of any myself, as most books concerning the industry fall into the categories of memoir (good vs. traumatic experience), feminist theory (hate it vs. really hate it), or the morality bitchfest (we all need to go back to church and keep our sinning hands to ourselves). Basically a lot of rubbernecking in book form but not a lot of objective study. I'm sure there are some serious papers or articles concerning the subject, as economics seems to a discipline where making money is paramount over everything else, including being humane and kind to people other than yourself. I've heard economics professors speak against things simply because they could cost money, not because there could be some ethical argument in favor of them. (No offense if you're an economics professor, just my experience and it kind of left a lasting impression.) I don't see why any moral qualms would really stop them from studying the economics of porn.
Thanks, and always glad to have a new (not to mention civil) member. "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | ||
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| 01-03-14 08:06pm - 4005 days | #9 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User  Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
Seconded. This is a very good thread, especially coming from a new member. Welcome. Personally I would rather pay for fewer updates (there are fewer nowadays everywhere), and have quality over quantity. If the site is a good one I will pay over $30. Teen Core Club is expensive for instance. I don't think we're paying enough for porn at the moment. What may happen is there will be free porn and expensive porn. Free porn will be used to sell advertising, while expensive porn will be quality. | |
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| 01-04-14 07:17am - 4005 days | #10 | |
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elephant (0)
Active User  Posts: 585 Registered: Jan 11, '07 |
I now have a rather low porn budget so I do plenty of research on sites beforehand, there are lots of deals around with porn these days so I look out for them and generally look for the $9.99-19.99 price range a month, I cancel always within the month unless its a huge site and I love the content I may stay for 2 months. Above $20 and I am looking for something special and worthwhile or unique content and have gone higher than $30 in the past for networks but wouldn't do this anymore I don't think. Simply can't afford to and often these sites are out for big money but rarely have quality content so they out for get as much out of you with fancy homepage but once you are in you realize you maybe have made a mistake and then its too late. It has happened a couple of times to me in the past. I would say the average cost use to be $30 a few years ago but now you do find lots of sites more in the $19.99 range. I have to say I'm much more likely to return to a site at $19.99 than $29.99 "Women are like tricks by sleight of hand, Which, to admire, we should not understand." WILLIAM CONGREVE | |
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| 01-04-14 09:38am - 4005 days | #11 | |
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rearadmiral (0)
Active User Posts: 1,453 Registered: Jul 16, '07 Location: NB/Canada |
I wish I could add something to this thread, but apart from thanking the OP and those who commented, I really can't. This is an interesting thread and I hope it carries on for a while. | |
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| 01-04-14 01:26pm - 4005 days | #12 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
I recently watched Lovelace on Netflix and this thread reminded me of the claims made about Deep Throat's huge revenues, the highest and most common figure being $600 million. However, a 2005 LA Times article discusses why this is so unrealistic, particularly for a film banned as obscene in much of the U.S. and at a time when ticket prices were considerably lower (and no, the number is not adjusted for inflation). Even if Deep Throat generated considerable revenue for a porn film, it's likely much of that went to whatever legitimate businessmen were running the theaters screening it, and they probably inflated its grosses in order to hide the laundering of revenue of their more serious transactions (drugs, prostitution, etc.).  Lovelace herself was supposedly only paid about $1200 for being in Deep Throat, and is one of the sad lessons of porn; the paycheck happens only once but the images are forever. Even those who held her up as an advocate against porn--a number of outspoken feminists who allied with, of all people, some in the Reagan administration during an anti-porn movement in the '80s--only used her to further their own ends. The Inside Deep Throat documentary is far less depressing, and gets a little into the money made by it, though it advocates the $600m figure. "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 01-04-14 01:46pm - 4005 days | #13 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
The only site I can think of above this is In The Crack, at $35/month...but maybe that's because it's Canadian.  I first joined this site years ago, years before I even reviewed it here at PU, and I seem to remember it being over $30 even then. And as erotically entertaining/educational as I found it I could not get past the price for a rejoin, and don't remember a discount offer either. I guess there's something to be said for its quality as it's been pretty consistent over the years, only branching out by shooting in more overseas locations and with more mainstream models. They started in 2001, a year in which they had a grand total of fourteen shoots, which they can now release in about one month. "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove Edited on Jan 06, 2014, 05:52pm (turboshaft: spelling) | |
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| 01-08-14 02:42am - 4001 days | #14 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
Salon had a short article about how recently "an Australian man" won an auction for an hour-long interactive one-on-one webcam show with a Kink.com performer named Maitresse Madeline. His winning bid: forty-two thousand dollars!  I'm not a fan of cam shows in general since I view adult entertainment as generally escapist fantasy (and I admit I have a fucked up imagination), not an active part of my life, or at least my sex life. And $42K sure beats what VIP Empress Ashley Dupré made being a "companion" to Eliot Spitzer a few years back (though he's believed to have paid more over several years and different women). Even then I remember comedians joking "What does a woman do for that kind of money? Come to your house and setup an entertainment system?" I guess for at least some the economics look good for the near future. "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 01-08-14 12:46pm - 4001 days | #15 | |
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messmer (0)
Disabled User  Posts: 2,582 Registered: Sep 12, '07 Location: Canada |
Both "We Are Hairy" and ATK's "Natural And Hairy" have gone from $29.95 to $34.95 during the past couple of months. Possibly because it is getting harder to find hairy models these days. | |
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| 01-08-14 03:01pm - 4001 days | #16 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
That's odd for ATK, since their other (and considerably less hairy) sites still appear to be $30/month. But shouldn't it be the opposite? Lower price because of money saved on shaving supplies, waxes, and laser treatments? "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 01-08-14 03:31pm - 4001 days | #17 | |
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jook (0)
Active User Posts: 325 Registered: Dec 22, '13 Location: jersey city |
The last several sites I looked at were all $34.95. It seems the industry is taking a backward approach. Anyway, I did join one of these sites that claimed their 1 day trial membership for $1 offered full access. Not quite. You could only download videos at a low bitrate and there was no access to their "bonus" sites which comes with a regular membership. Anyway, I digress... when I went to cancel, the offer was made for $24.95 and I accepted. Every site that I've canceled with, which is every site that I join since a month is sufficient for me, there's always an offer for a lower price. | |
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| 01-09-14 09:38am - 4000 days | #18 | |
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Monahan (0)
Active User  Posts: 348 Registered: Jan 17, '07 Location: SF Valley, CA |
Interesting discussion. I've been a member of VideoBox for at least 8 years. Their monthly rate is $15.00 regular and $12.00 at PU's special rate. VB posts 5 full DVD's per day, 365 days a year, which means a member gets access to an average of 150 full length videos per month, or 10 cents per video. The average video has five scenes so the rice per scene is $0.02. Yes, they do have some "crap" but at 2 cents per scene I('m fine with that, especially because they have a lot more superb stuff than "crap.". jook's point is that his site Trike Patrol charges $30 per month for 4 or 5 updates, total. That's $5.00 to $7.70 per update, which I suspect is a single scene. How does VB stay in business? I suspect that it's because they have a ton of subscribers; a direct result of their great price. Trike Patrol serves a special niche which means their stuff is probably high quality but it probably has a much smaller subscriber base. That means Trike Patrol has to cover its costs with far fewer customers. The economic concept is fixed vs variable costs. VB pays the same fees/royalties for its content whether they have 20 subscribers or 20,000. The only variable cost of significance is servers and bandwith, the cost of which varies by volume of activity. That means VB makes more per $12 subscriber than Trike Patrol per $30 subscriber simply because VB's costs are spread over a much larger base than Trike Patrol's. | |
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| 01-09-14 02:07pm - 4000 days | #19 | |
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messmer (0)
Disabled User Posts: 2,582 Registered: Sep 12, '07 Location: Canada |
I only had two explanations as to why ATK's other sites are still $ 29.95: One) The site is so popular since they made "extreme hairy" their policy they can afford to raise their price, or Two) The site lost so many subscribers since they switched to "extreme hairy" that they had to up their prices to make any sort of a profit. As someone who dislikes thick, coarse stubble on a woman's legs I hope it was the latter and that they will eventually switch back to a more moderate way of presenting natural women. | |
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| 01-09-14 04:34pm - 4000 days | #20 | |
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Capn (0)
Active User Posts: 1,740 Registered: Sep 05, '09 Location: Near the Beer! |
So far as I am concerned, the biggest hit was the change of emphasis. Inflating the price dramatically just added a few nails to its coffin, so far as I am concerned. Cap'n.  Admiral of the PU Hindenburg. 2009 PU AwardHilarious Post of the Year 2010 PU Award ( I would have preferred it to be Helpful Post of the Year for Guys who Hate 'Retail Therapy' ) :0/ Sanity is in the eye of the Beholder! | |
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| 01-09-14 06:03pm - 3999 days | #21 | |
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messmer (0)
Disabled User Posts: 2,582 Registered: Sep 12, '07 Location: Canada |
I would love to see the statistics as to their user base before the switch and after, Cap'n. It must have looked to them, maybe by measuring downloads, maybe by the enthusiastic approval and pressure tactics of "hairy-all-over" fans, that the switch would gain them more customers if they made the site a true fetish site. That's why I am torn about which of my two theories is the right one. m. still in  | |
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| 01-09-14 06:21pm - 3999 days | #22 | |
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pat362 (0)
Active User  Posts: 3,575 Registered: Jan 23, '07 Location: canada |
Although I will never knock VB for their ridiculously low price. In my opinion their better days are probably now behind them. These days they mostly update with recycled material taken from a mixture of sub-standard porn sites to some pretty good ones or they upload movies that are 5 or more years old. I don't mind the older titles because many of these movies are superior to what is done now but they will either have to start looking for much older stuff or they will literally run out of new material. Long live the Brown Coats. | |
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| 01-11-14 09:09am - 3998 days | #23 | |
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Cybertoad (0)
Disabled User  Posts: 2,158 Registered: Jan 01, '08 Location: Wash |
I tend to leave a site only after a month or three, because usually there is no reason to pay 30.00 for one week updates on many sites. Those that update often and daily make a long term more practical. Some people join and take for ever to get any downloads. Many to be honest will wait until its late at night or no one is home, which I am sure is very common and then download until they can not stay up any longer. I am sure there are many that hide and download that makes up for staying a member longer to get content. The others I think people forget about it due to busy life and walla another month slides by. Just my take. Since 2007 | |
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| 01-11-14 10:09am - 3998 days | #24 | |
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rearadmiral (0)
Active User Posts: 1,453 Registered: Jul 16, '07 Location: NB/Canada |
My beef with VB is that they haven't modernized in years. When I first joined many years ago the file resolutions were probably at or above industry standards. Now they are way behind the norm. Even their daily "HD" offering isn't up to standard. VB's best days are behind them unless they change their model and concentrate on quality rather than quantity, but then they'd lose members who want quantity even if it is crap. I used to join a couple of times a year but I won't be joining again until they improve. And with their change to end the tour pages I'll likely never find out of they do improve so it's goodbye to VB for me. | |
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| 01-11-14 06:18pm - 3997 days | #25 | |
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pat362 (0)
Active User Posts: 3,575 Registered: Jan 23, '07 Location: canada |
^If you read my previous post then you will have seen that VB is now partially updating with older content that can never be offered in HD because it was never filmed in that format and can't be remastered to be any better than what they were filmed in. As to the other stuff they update with. They could offer more HD content but that is a huge catch 22. If VB goes down that route then they will have to pay more for those videos and if they do that then they'll have to increase their join price. I have no problem with a price increase but I suspect that there are now so many people that would scream bloody murder if VB even attempted a modest increase that they would lose more customers to tube sites then they currently do. Long live the Brown Coats. | |
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| 01-12-14 05:42pm - 3996 days | #26 | |
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LPee23 (0)
Active User  Posts: 399 Registered: Jul 14, '13 Location: USA |
I'm going to take this thread off in a different direction, but still related to the economics of the porn industry. It's true that $30 a month seems to be the standard when it comes to subscriptions, but what is the value of digital porn when it becomes scarce? I can say a lot about this first hand, because I have been going to pretty significant lengths to recover some of the great porn that came before my time. By chance, I happened to get in touch recently with the producer of a really great site that went offline in 2006. This was a site that I was really kicking myself for not getting while it was still around. The content was not being offered for sale, so I knew I would have to make a significant bid. What was the price we agreed on? $1,500.00. For that price, he went to a storage unit and dug out the old computer, only to find that it didn't boot. So he mounted the hard drive in a new computer, and luckily all of the content was still there. This was honestly a price that we were both very happy with. Yeah, it's a lot more than $30 a month, but I would definitely never have seen this great content otherwise. So, this is how scarcity leads to a much higher price. Better to be pissed on, than to be pissed off. | |
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| 01-14-14 08:41am - 3995 days | #27 | |
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Cybertoad (0)
Disabled User Posts: 2,158 Registered: Jan 01, '08 Location: Wash |
Ya what he said lol Since 2007 | |
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