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| Porn Users Forum » "No adult Industry in two years" |
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| 09-25-10 06:45pm - 5108 days | Original Post - #1 | |
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malikstarks (0)
Active User Posts: 108 Registered: Nov 19, '07 Location: Florida |
"No adult Industry in two years" I know there are some active threads already discussing this but I wanted to start a thread based on what I have personally been observing. Albeit my observations may be anecdotal but I really don't think so. I am currently a member at Scoreland, below is the comment from Scoreland editor Elliot James in response to some complaints that new model Valory Irene's videos are streaming only: "Gentlemen, We understand your concerns and your feelings about the streaming-only format of Valory's videos. We sympathize with you and wish we didn't have to take this action because we know that when you take something away, there is often a sense of being deprived. I want to use this comment board to explain why we have taken this step. The amount of content theft on the Internet has escalated to the point where SCORELAND�s existence is in peril. Torrent sites, tube sites and file sharing sites are filled with illegal, unauthorized uploads, not only of SCORE Group content, but the property of every Adult producer as well as the major Hollywood studios. I, and several other TSG staff members, have dealt with Internet copyright infringement for over a decade, but with most of the piracy coming from offshore sources, our legal options are limited. No one, no laws and no government is going to protect our content for us. We have to be willing to accept the responsibility ourselves. I spend hours each day sending out legal notices to have our videos and photos removed from pirate sites. The next day, they are back up again. Yes, we understand that only a handful of individuals are downloading and then illegally reposting our material and that our loyal members understand that piracy is a damaging act. But now, sad but true, it has come down to life or death for us. We have no choice but to take extreme action and that action is to reduce the means by which a video can be easily downloaded and propagated. So, in a way, we are depriving you, the good guys, while trying to stop the bad guys, but there is no other solution available at this time. In anticipation of this action, we invested heavily in our streaming infrastructure to bring you high quality HD 720p streaming video that exceeds the quality of our WMV and MP4 downloads. If content theft is not stemmed, there will be no SCORELAND and no Adult Industry within two years. With sales lost to pirate sites comes an inability for us to continue finding and shooting new models. It�s as simple as that. Until a better solution can be sourced, I beg your understanding in this very serious problem. We need your support so we can continue to bring you the quality content you expect from us. Thank you, Elliot James, editor and the staff of The SCORE Group." Of course every time a major player in the industry warns of impending doom, they are blown off as 'overreacting'. However I have begun to believe that many of us are not aware of the urgency because it hasn't happened yet. Easy porn access is all we have ever known either by visiting the adult movie store in the old days or downloading over the internet today. What I have personally been observing is the obtaining the free stuff is becoming far too easy. In fact I'd say the most recent trends and developments in porn are taking place on the "free side". One thing that comes to mind is the cutthroat business that is file hosting. Many of you may be aware of sites like Rapidshare, and Megaupload. These sites make money by housing large files uploaded by subscribers in order to facilitate sharing. What most regular guys don't realize is that these sites actually pay subscribers to attract business and new subscribers to their site. Suffice it to say that this business has gotten very lucrative for both the hosting sites and the subscribers. With all manner of users fancying themselves as "independent contractors". Posting "Megathreads" and "siterips" on dozens of adult sharing forums which have themselves become more prolific. Some of these users even start up their own blogs where just about every new video and DVD is posted. Of course these things have been around for a while now but it's become so competitive that I feel there has been a rapid increase in the number of guys uploading. In addition there has been a sort of rise and fall amongst the hosting sites, based primarily on the money they make available to their "independent contractors". (For instance use of Rapidsahre and Depositfiles is in decline, while Hotfile and fileserve is on the rise). Other things I've been observing is more and more bigger adult sites no longer updating (basically failing).(How many new reviews are from sites that everyone knows is no longer updating) And less new sites cropping up like in the old days. Maybe just saturation but I'm not so sure. Edited on Sep 27, 2010, 03:09pm | |
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| 09-25-10 08:13pm - 5108 days | #2 | |
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Yariana (0)
Suspended Webmaster  Posts: 56 Registered: Mar 10, '10 Location: Salem Oregon |
Who can afford to update? Producing adult content is very expensive. Especially when members are expecting weekly updates. This very well may be my last month of offering downloads then I will have to go to streaming as well. Though I have been successful at getting my content removed from these sites the legal costs are prohibitive and the constant battle is exhausting. I just wonder this; what are they going to steal when the producers quit producing and we are all out of business? Edited on Sep 25, 2010, 08:21pm | |
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| 09-25-10 11:31pm - 5108 days | #4 | |
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slutty (0)
Active User Posts: 475 Registered: Mar 02, '09 Location: Pennsylvania |
Unfortunately I don't think streaming is the solution, as most people just wont join the site then, I certainly wouldn't. It is an unfortunate situation, although I think somewhat overblown - people said MP3s would be the death of the music industry, but in the long term I think it has been good for them. Why isn't providing DRM that allows permanent ownership (like iTunes originally did) more common? Perhaps it is easy to circumvent, but at least it is something and avoids the main complaint users have with DRM: most sites that use it require you to renew the license frequently. Bunny Lebowski: I'll suck your cock for a thousand dollars. Brandt: Ah hahahahaha! Wonderful woman. We're all, we're all very fond of her. Very free-spirited. | |
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| 09-25-10 11:48pm - 5108 days | #5 | |
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malikstarks (0)
Active User Posts: 108 Registered: Nov 19, '07 Location: Florida |
I'm very sorry to hear about your situation Yariana. It's the small sites like yours that really add to and enriche the industry. Unfortunately It's been my observation that most of the smaller sites are going by the waste side. I don't think most guys notice the impact this is having. When a big name player like Score says it may have to close up shop, I don't know what to say. They've been around for decades, still have their hand in magazines and DVD's, plus handled the transition to online better than most of their peers. Again it comes down to not believing it can happen because it hasn't happened yet. Slutty I agree, I think the industry needs to pool it's money and invest in a DRM technology that is constantly updated or something like that, to prevent the inevitable circumvention. Hire a big name firm to do it and call it day for non-DRM downloads. Edited on Sep 25, 2010, 11:54pm | |
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| 09-26-10 01:16am - 5108 days | #6 | |
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Yariana (0)
Suspended Webmaster Posts: 56 Registered: Mar 10, '10 Location: Salem Oregon |
Slutty, You are most likely correct in saying it may be somewhat overblown, at least as far as it relates to the industry as a whole. I highly doubt the industry will disappear. It will just have to evolve and like with all industries facing hardship, it will force us to find new ways of protecting our products. But many smaller producers will have a hard time surviving this. I think it is important to distinguish between adult content producers who shoot their own content and market their own sites and those that produce massive amounts of content, sell it to web sites all over the net that purchase it and sell it on their sites. Buying bulk content and slapping it up on a site is easy and a lot less expensive then being a full production company that has the daily or weekly expensive of shooting the video. For the price of one exclusive video shoot, I can purchase between 6-15 non-exclusive weekly updates, depending on the quality. There is a huge difference in cost between the two business models. There is hope however, The 2010 Joint Strategic Plan On Intellectual Property Enforcement dated June 2010, proposes the involvement of the DOJ, FBI, and other agencies to enforce and pursue prosecution of intellectual property rights infringement. It's focus is strongly on oversees infringement of US copyright/trademarks. It is a fascinating read. The tide is turning. The free ride will not last forever. I just hope it happens before too many of us go under. Edited on Sep 26, 2010, 01:26am | |
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| 09-26-10 01:23am - 5108 days | #7 | |
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Yariana (0)
Suspended Webmaster Posts: 56 Registered: Mar 10, '10 Location: Salem Oregon |
malikstarks, thanks. I will find a way too keep my head above water. I have invested way to much money to go down easy. It is just the stress of having to make decisions such as these that is exhausting. I don't think most people really understand what it takes to run a production company. The costs are very high. I really don't think this will go on forever and those that can weather this storm will come back strong. Edited on Sep 26, 2010, 01:27am | |
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| 09-26-10 02:11am - 5108 days | #8 | |
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hodayathink (0)
Active User Posts: 312 Registered: Mar 27, '09 Location: Illinois |
The problem with that is that it only takes one person to crack the DRM for it to end up on tube sites and upload sites. And all DRM gets cracked, since there are people out there that sit there and try to crack it "for the lulz", or just because they can. In the end, there is some truth to the statement that DRM doesn't really stop pirates, and only affects the normal paying customers. The thing that has to happen for it to stop, to be honest, is that there needs to be a financial reason for these sites not to host copyrighted content. Right now, if a site gets caught with it, the site that owns the copyright sends them a notice, and they have to take it down at that point, but they can still let someone else upload it, and they are never punished unless they don't comply to takedown notices. If there were some way to fine/sue sites that continually host copyrighted content from other sites, the amount of piracy on them would greatly diminish. | |
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| 09-26-10 02:55am - 5108 days | #9 | |
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Capn (0)
Active User  Posts: 1,740 Registered: Sep 05, '09 Location: Near the Beer! |
The porn industry isn't just video, much as a lot of folk seem to think it is. The market will evolve as it always does. Scare mongering is a common weapon to get people to accept what you are saying as truth. Mainstream hardcore video, is always going to be a battleground. I think the road to success involves finding a niche and digging in.  Cap'n.  Admiral of the PU Hindenburg. 2009 PU AwardHilarious Post of the Year 2010 PU Award ( I would have preferred it to be Helpful Post of the Year for Guys who Hate 'Retail Therapy' ) :0/ Sanity is in the eye of the Beholder! | |
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| 09-26-10 04:05am - 5108 days | #10 | |
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hodayathink (0)
Active User Posts: 312 Registered: Mar 27, '09 Location: Illinois |
Says the person that likes niche content. | |
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| 09-26-10 10:41am - 5107 days | #11 | |
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PinkPanther (0)
Active User  Posts: 1,136 Registered: Jan 08, '07 Location: Oakland, CA |
No adult industry in 2 years - lol!! Yeah, the music industry is completely gone - right? There is none, there's no music being created anywhere, everything is over - right? The movie industry as well - gone! Completely gone! There hasn't been any movies made anywhere due to piracy having completely destroyed the movie industry. Will there be an adult industry in 2 years - I believe there will. Will there be a lot of debate and struggle over how sites juggle the desires of their members for easy downloads with the fight against piracy? Absolutely. All one can do is to support the sites that you feel deserve support and say "Goodbye" to the sites that you feel are no longer worth maintaining membership to. | |
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| 09-26-10 10:50am - 5107 days | #12 | |
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messmer (0)
Disabled User  Posts: 2,582 Registered: Sep 12, '07 Location: Canada |
Let me be a prophet and state that if Scoreland institutes a streaming only policy it will be gone within two years! So will any site that contemplates doing the same because most of us are collectors. We like certain models, we like downloading and storing and arranging and sorting. Then there is the pride of possession as we look at our ever growing stash!  Same as I resisted DRM so I will resist streaming only and so will thousands of others who, at the moment, use the legitimate route to obtain their Porn! The suffering sites (and I sympathize with them) will have to find a way to impose hefty fines on those sites that allow their users to download pirated material. I don't know about decentralized methods of distribution like peer to peer, they're a bit harder to touch, but getting rid of the other illegal distributors would at least make a large enough dent to save the industry. OR NO? | |
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| 09-26-10 02:49pm - 5107 days | #13 | |
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Capn (0)
Active User Posts: 1,740 Registered: Sep 05, '09 Location: Near the Beer! |
Yes. ..and your point is? Cap'n.  Admiral of the PU Hindenburg. 2009 PU AwardHilarious Post of the Year 2010 PU Award ( I would have preferred it to be Helpful Post of the Year for Guys who Hate 'Retail Therapy' ) :0/ Sanity is in the eye of the Beholder! | |
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| 09-26-10 03:58pm - 5107 days | #14 | |
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malikstarks (0)
Active User Posts: 108 Registered: Nov 19, '07 Location: Florida |
Good points Pink Panther but I think every industry is different. And both the movie and music industry have been around (in their current corporatized forms) far longer than has porn. First off few have ever bemoaned the death of the movie industry, piracy for the movie industry is really just a minor annoyance (and really has always been around in some form). Most mainstream movie watchers still don't really know how to 1. download whole movies to their computer 2. get those movies to play on their television where they want to watch them. This is because movies appeal to such a large demographic, most of whom are not that tech savvy. Besides, going to the theater always has been and will be an experience that many cherish-this is something piracy cannot touch. As far as the music industry it is still very much in trouble. It's only been saved to a large degree by the invention of the Apple ipod and it's itunes store which has been nothing short of a cultural phenomenon. If one wants to compare the music industry to the adult industry you would then need to concede that drastic changes are ahead. For instance, the music industry now sells far more individual songs for a dollar through digital downloads. If it had to rely on the old model of selling whole albums on CD-it in fact would be dead. The question is then will the adult industry change in ways that are favorable to collectors like us. I don't think the answer is yes. Edited on Sep 26, 2010, 04:06pm | |
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| 09-26-10 04:08pm - 5107 days | #15 | |
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PinkPanther (0)
Active User Posts: 1,136 Registered: Jan 08, '07 Location: Oakland, CA |
You may be right, however I would point out that through the past couple of years of doom-and-gloom warnings, the main trend that I have seen is the industry changing in ways that ARE favorable to collectors like myself - pricing getting more reasonable for lots of sites - at least for people willing to commit to long-term deals and content still being presented in high quality. There is clearly a weeding-out process going on and not all sites are going to make it. That's the fact in all challenged industries. If sites switch to presenting their material in ways that don't appeal to me, I'll cease to be a member of those sites or won't join them. And I'll join or remain a member of sites that are presenting their material in ways that appeal to me. That's how I plan on dealing with it. | |
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| 09-26-10 04:20pm - 5107 days | #16 | |
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Capn (0)
Active User Posts: 1,740 Registered: Sep 05, '09 Location: Near the Beer! |
That is a perfectly rational approach. I am of a similar opinion!  Cap'n. Admiral of the PU Hindenburg. 2009 PU AwardHilarious Post of the Year 2010 PU Award ( I would have preferred it to be Helpful Post of the Year for Guys who Hate 'Retail Therapy' ) :0/ Sanity is in the eye of the Beholder! | |
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| 09-26-10 04:38pm - 5107 days | #17 | |
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malikstarks (0)
Active User Posts: 108 Registered: Nov 19, '07 Location: Florida |
Again good points, of course all of this is really out of our hands anyway. One can only hope that our favorite sites are not part of the "weeding out process" you mention. However this is also a situation that could cause a race to the bottom, as the more sites that fail cause pirates to focus on the remaining sites that are updating and so on and so forth. This is the first I'd heard that the Score Group was even having a problem, and this is a large conglomerate(with enough of a niche that you'd think they'd be okay), not some mom and pop amateur site. | |
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| 09-26-10 05:54pm - 5107 days | #18 | |
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pat362 (0)
Active User  Posts: 3,575 Registered: Jan 23, '07 Location: canada |
I think that the music and movie industry have had better help from Governement than the porn industry. It's much easier to go in front of Congress and tell the Senators that we need tougher laws governing file sharing when you're MGM, Dreamscape, Sony and all the others. Good luck asking the same thing if you're EA/John Stagliano and you'd like similar powers for your next Anal Acrobat DVD release. These days finding legal porn on Google is very hard. If you type an actresse's name and fetish then most sites that come up are tube or torrent sites. I don't think that was the case 2yrs ago. Long live the Brown Coats. | |
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| 09-26-10 06:41pm - 5107 days | #19 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
I would also argue that there is a professionalism gap between the movie industry and the porn industry. Porn seems to allow for a great range of production values and quality levels; from the amateur home movie approach to whatever the hell you would classify "Pirates" as. There is a fairly strong independent movie industry but it makes a fraction of the profits that the Hollywood releases do, and they are still very professionally made, minus big special effects and stars. Amateur porn however...well, we have all seen it and it's not always that pretty; crappy equipment and/or sites that give me the impression it's more about a guy trying to get laid than making quality filth. There's certainly nothing wrong with getting laid, but there's more than enough gonzo and amateur porn out there. "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 09-26-10 07:25pm - 5107 days | #20 | |
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Drooler (0)
Disabled User  Posts: 1,831 Registered: Mar 11, '07 Location: USA |
I'd be more inclined to believe "No more beautiful women in porn in 2 years." Here's the process: 1. Woman chosen to be in porn BY THE PRODUCERS because she is beautiful. 2. Woman becomes very popular with fans because she is beautiful. 3. Woman pressured to have plastic surgery on her face and get big, ugly fake tits on her chest. 4. Woman looks much worse since she started than she would had her looks just been left alone! The same good looks that got her in and made her popular (like, "$$$$$$" popular) to begin with. I was just looking at photos of Lela Starr that appeared at Matt's Models about 4 years ago. She looked wonderful! She looks NOTHING like that now, with the fake tits, plastic surgery face, and trashy tattoo all over her back. If the porn industry took the form of a single human being, that person would certainly be one of the biggest assholes the world has ever seen. I wanted something new, so I left England for New England. | |
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| 09-27-10 12:06am - 5107 days | #21 | |
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slutty (0)
Active User Posts: 475 Registered: Mar 02, '09 Location: Pennsylvania |
I find this discussion very intersting, and I agree very much with most of PinkPanther's points. I think it is easy for an adult site to blame piracy for their failure, though I personally believe the cause of their failure is more likely poor management, poor content, or a generally poor site. Just like every restaurant that opens doesn't stay in business, neither will every adult website. Though the RIAA and MPAA may have spent more money fighting piracy, they were by no means successful. Piracy in both the movie and music industries I am sure is just as rampant as it was 10 years ago. I think the music industry finally got it right in providing music in a format people wanted, with easy access, and downloadable at a reasonable price in whichever fashion they want (single track or album). I think all adult websites should learn from this example, if you don't present the content in a way the consumer will appreciate, you are destined to fail. Bunny Lebowski: I'll suck your cock for a thousand dollars. Brandt: Ah hahahahaha! Wonderful woman. We're all, we're all very fond of her. Very free-spirited. | |
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| 09-27-10 12:59am - 5107 days | #22 | |
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Belthazar (0)
Active User Posts: 27 Registered: Jan 13, '07 Location: Prague |
Recent link from AVN http://business.avn.com/articles/Porn-v-...nt-Users-413391.html Women: Different hardware, same software | |
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| 09-27-10 01:20am - 5107 days | #23 | |
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Belthazar (0)
Active User Posts: 27 Registered: Jan 13, '07 Location: Prague |
I will never join an adult site that allows only streaming - never ever I am really not sure, if i will join other site anyway. I dont like todays porn - too much POV, gonzo etc. I want good porn films with decent plot and models that are able to act - pseudo features (XXX Parodies)that are made nowadays are even worse than amateur Russian gonzo In Europe - not piracy but mandatory use of comdoms is the biggest problem for some productions - nobody wants to even look at this latex art - And paying for this ? - NO,thanks. Women: Different hardware, same software | |
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| 09-27-10 06:58am - 5107 days | #24 | |
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PinkPanther (0)
Active User Posts: 1,136 Registered: Jan 08, '07 Location: Oakland, CA |
And with respect for the smaller sites that found it more easy-going in the past and might indeed wash out in today's climate, a certain amount of capitalization is probably going to be necessary to deal with the vicissitudes of the market - just as with the restaurant business. In the wake of the dot-com boom in SF, there were a lot of restaurants that went under, many of them reputed to be serving fine food, though I'm not a big restaurant-goer and don't know from personal experience. They just didn't have the capital to make it through a period of negative profit. It may well be the same in the adult industry, that there will be small sites doing good stuff in a consumer-friendly way that just can't get the traffic to make a profit in a more challenged economy with piracy as a further challenge. It is another reason to be glad of the existence of TBP and other review sites that increase knowledge of smaller sites. | |
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| 09-27-10 09:56am - 5106 days | #25 | |
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Denner (0)
Active User  Posts: 1,217 Registered: Mar 03, '07 Location: Denmark |
"Who can afford to update?" Certainly a sad announcement...and again sad when good sites give up... But is this bottom line a matter of free "enterprise" - I hate that word, though - and a matter of generally: which sites get/attract the potential members - due to what porn users want - some make good money here, for certain - some give up... And got to give it to slutty: "I think it is easy for an adult site to blame piracy for their failure, though I personally believe the cause of their failure is more likely poor management, poor content, or a generally poor site. Just like every restaurant that opens doesn't stay in business, neither will every adult website." Well spoken - though I'll NOT relate it to Yariana - (I do not know her site, simply as that). "I don't drink anymore - I freeze it, and eat it like a popcicle" | |
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| 09-27-10 12:26pm - 5106 days | #26 | |
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malikstarks (0)
Active User Posts: 108 Registered: Nov 19, '07 Location: Florida |
Many here seem to view this as a free market issue. And while I'm not here to argue with anybody, there are a couple of things I would like to point out. Free markets require safeguards, laws, and even a bit of regulation in order to operate. To this day the largest form of piracy that the movie industry deals with is "physical piracy"-basically bootleg DVDs sold mainly by street vendors all over the world. My point is that this type of piracy-while a growing thorn in the music industries side-can still be dealt with through traditional means. Shipments of bootlegged material can be seized at customs, police can conduct raids on the street vendors etc. Far more importantly however, the movie industry benefits from a public that is accustomed to paying to watch its movies, either in the theater,by purchasing (legitimate) DVDs, or through a cable subscription. When one goes to purchase a mainstream movie DVD, you do not have to hang your head or hide as some might while visiting the adult book store. Likewise a mainstream DVD purchase on a credit card statement does not look "suspicious" to a man's spouse, as does a purchase titled CCBILL or EPOCH. Most regular guys also believe mistakenly that virtually all porn sites have fraudulent billing practices. A lot of guys here one bad story, paint the entire industry with a broad brush, and use it as a justification to steal content. I'd like to ask everyone here a question, have you ever gotten into even a casual discussion about porn with a guy or a group of guys and one will blurt something to the effect: "why pay for it when you can see it all for free anyway"? I saw a guy on an unrelated forum state that "Paying for porn would be like paying for sand at the beach". Most guys here may not be aware of it but I'd say about 95% of guys that view porn do so casually, primarily using the tube sites, with file sharing being a close second. (in other words for free) Just take a quick look through the top 100 most visited websites in the world.http://www.alexa.com/topsites If you look closely basically all the major adult tube sites are represented (I won't name them here), also Rapidshare, Hotfile, Megaupload, (and others) all represented in the top 100. (guys aren't using Rapidshare to exchange family photos). This says nothing of the torrents, which cannot be tracked through such means. Oh and by the way, in that top 100, not one legitimate adult pay site.In fact I didn't see one in the top 200 (that's as far as I looked), unless you want to count Adult Friend Finder, which is a common pop up. However I kept seeing virtually every adult tube site and file host site known to man, even the obscure ones. This is not a coincidence. In a nutshell, no industry can survive when: 1. The overwhelming majority of its consumers believe deeply that it's products should be free. 2.There are few (enforceable) laws in place to prevent said consumers from acting on that belief. I don't care how well managed they are. If this were case then one literally could make a living selling sand to beach-goers. Edited on Sep 27, 2010, 04:11pm | |
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| 09-27-10 12:35pm - 5106 days | #27 | |
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Wittyguy (0)
Active User  Posts: 1,138 Registered: Feb 04, '08 Location: Left Coast, USA |
The problem with Scoreland is that they're not thinking far enough outside of the box. As others have suggested, correctly in my opinion, Scoreland is just setting itself up for obsolescence by going stream only. They're lazy for basically taking a DRM approach to perceived pirating and, of course, overstating their case in a ploy to gain sympathy. Sorry, but you don't get new customers from sympathy ploys, at least not in internet porn. On the other hand, if they cut their price for stream only or had a tiered system allowing users to buy downloads they might have been heading down a sustainable path. As it is, it's too late in the big boob game (as Drooler notes, it seems like it's just a matter of time before every starlet starts overinvesting in silicone) with too much competition to suddenly go DRM (which is what expensive stream only sites are). The current state of the porn biz is one one where businesses are sort of left scratching their heads. The easy money making days are long gone and now they have to deal with pirating, a fickle consumer who's used to downloading everything they see and lots of competition. Unless you've got a good niche going, a thick bankroll made when times were better, or sleek business model rolling it's going to be tough to make it without some affordable game changer technology letting the industry jump forward. I think we're just starting to sort out the future losers from the survivors in the biz. | |
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| 09-27-10 04:37pm - 5106 days | #28 | |
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slutty (0)
Active User Posts: 475 Registered: Mar 02, '09 Location: Pennsylvania |
I agree with some of what you say malikstarks, but I just think it is important to note that this isn't really any different then the internet porn business was 10 years ago - where many/most got their porn via peer-to-peer file sharing, IRC, or other illegitimate methods. Even BitTorrent has existed for years, so why the hubbub from so many sites recently? The piracy thing is very much a red herring, and probably trying to drum up sympathy or acceptance to a change in content or style during difficult times in the industry. There always have been and always will be people that don't want to pay for porn. Just like there still are many that don't think paying for movies or music is necessary. Hollywood spent years saying they were suffering due to piracy in the early aughts, even though piracy had existed since the invention of the VCR. The reality was, they were releasing films people didn't want to see, and charging way too much for them - especially when people could get almost the same experience in their home theaters legally a few months later, for 1/10 the price. Further, most of the "pirates" were teens or college kids that wouldn't have seen the movie unless it were free anyway. As PinkPanther stated, the reality is that the economy sucks, so people don't spend as much on non-necessities, like porn (I know some of you consider porn a necessity, but most don't!). I still think it basically is a free market issue, it is just that fewer people have money to spend in the market than they did a few years ago. Just because there are new ways to get free porn doesn't mean there has been an increase in those that get porn for free. Bunny Lebowski: I'll suck your cock for a thousand dollars. Brandt: Ah hahahahaha! Wonderful woman. We're all, we're all very fond of her. Very free-spirited. | |
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| 09-27-10 08:00pm - 5106 days | #29 | |
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malikstarks (0)
Active User Posts: 108 Registered: Nov 19, '07 Location: Florida |
If you think the business of "free porn" (and it is very much a business), resembles in any way what it did 10 years ago I don't know what to tell you. For one thing, file hosting sites did not exist, at least not in there present form. Rapidshare-probably the oldest-was not even founded until 2006-and only this year-2010- became "one of the top 50 most visited sites in the world" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapidshare Ditto for the tube sites, I won't name individual adult tube sites here (just to abide by the rules), but let's just say that Youtube-the gradfather of all the adult tube sites-was not even founded until 2005 and took at least a couple of years to become popular and spawn it's adult-tube offspring. As both venues have increased in popularity/sophistication/ease of use-so the profits of the internet porn producers apparently taken a nosedive. This coupled with torrent sites, which I agree have been around for a bit longer (but have also made strides themselves). As far as the economy, I don't know if it has decreased demand for porn so much as it has increased demand for free porn, and the activity on the free side imo has now so outpaced that of the pay side that is no longer sustainable. Trust me, when a site like fileserve-a file host site that's probably only been around for less than a couple of years-can crack a top 150 most visted websites in the world. And not one adult pay site. Something's very wrong now, much more so than it has ever been. I wish this were not the case,and of course there isn't much we can do about it, but I don't think we can simply ignore it, or write it off any longer. Edited on Sep 27, 2010, 08:22pm | |
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| 09-27-10 09:00pm - 5106 days | #30 | |
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hodayathink (0)
Active User Posts: 312 Registered: Mar 27, '09 Location: Illinois |
And to add to this, as I was doing the stuff I talked about in the thread I just created (about Alexa rankings), I decided to look at some of the tube sites and see how they ranked. I found about 5 filesharing sites (like rapidshare and megaupload) and another 5 adult tube sites at least in the top 100 web pages in the world. All of them were above PirateBay, which is the BIGGEST torrent site in the world, in my opinion. While like most people, I do think there is a little bit of exaggerating on the part of the websites, but they are facing a problem that with piracy that they have to figure out how to solve, or else there's going to be a lot of sites that people thought were safe that are going to be going under. | |
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| 09-27-10 10:13pm - 5106 days | #31 | |
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slutty (0)
Active User Posts: 475 Registered: Mar 02, '09 Location: Pennsylvania |
malikstarks, I wasn't saying that these particular methods for obtaining free porn existed ten years ago, I was saying that there have always been ways to get free porn pretty much since people started running porn websites. If you think the people that are using the free porn sites like rapidshare now are doing so out of convenience, I think you are mistaken. Most of these folks are likely the same types of folks taht that were using Limewire ten years ago. My main point was that for those that want free porn, an avenue to get it has always been available - and these folks would probably rarely if ever pay for porn. The fact that the industry is suffering at the same time that these tube sites and rapidshares are thriving shows perhaps a correlation, certainly doesn't prove any kind of causation. The tube sites might aggravate the problem most likely caused by the economy, in my opinion and experience those willing to sort through all the crap you get off torrents, or rapidshares, or the crappy quality on tube sites probably wouldn't be paying for porn anyway. It is intersting that the rapidshare sites are ranked highly, however they are used for lots of illegal purposes besides porn (wares, movies, music, games, etc). Also, this debate seems similar to the paid TV decline from last year. It would be easy to attribute it to sites like Hulu, but more likely it is caused by the economy and unemployment. Bunny Lebowski: I'll suck your cock for a thousand dollars. Brandt: Ah hahahahaha! Wonderful woman. We're all, we're all very fond of her. Very free-spirited. Edited on Sep 27, 2010, 10:24pm | |
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| 09-27-10 10:29pm - 5106 days | #32 | |
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hodayathink (0)
Active User Posts: 312 Registered: Mar 27, '09 Location: Illinois |
What you're discounting is the actual ease of finding this stuff. I'm going to be honest, I was a pirate back in the early part of this decade. It wasn't easy. At all. You had to use programs like Kazaa and WinMX and Direct Connect, which were not user friendly. If you were on anything less than DSL, you'd be waiting hours to get the stuff, as your speeds sometimes would be slower than if you were downloading directly from the website. It was something that was primarily for the people that were already tech-oriented, which wasn't really that large of an audience back then. Now, as has been said, I can literally just Google a performer and an act, and within the first 2 or 3 pages of results, I can find a tube scene to watch of that performer doing that thing. It's so easy that anyone could do it. And there's no waiting for the scene to finish downloading to watch it, either. And within the first 5 or 6 pages, I'll probably find a link to download the file directly, too. The movie and music industries have been able to deal with it better for a few reasons. First because they have more money for lawyers for take-down notices and lawsuits against companies hosting their content (Viacom vs. Youtube, for example). And second, because they have always worked together and had lobbying organizations to help protect their content (RIAA, MPAA). Porn has nothing that is really like either of those agencies. The "industry", as it were, most of the time acts as a large group of people who, while in the same industry, don't really want to help out their fellow companies. They have their own lawyers and are trying to figure out their own ways to stop piracy. This is actually one of the things they need to fix if they're going to make it through this tough time they are facing. | |
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| 09-27-10 10:44pm - 5106 days | #33 | |
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malikstarks (0)
Active User Posts: 108 Registered: Nov 19, '07 Location: Florida |
Good debate Slutty, we'll agree to disagree. | |
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| 09-27-10 11:02pm - 5106 days | #34 | |
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slutty (0)
Active User Posts: 475 Registered: Mar 02, '09 Location: Pennsylvania |
I don't think the music and movie industries have dealt with it any better - you can find new movies all the time on filesharing sites. Also, Google won the lawsuit viacom placed, which basically meant youtube was only responsible for removing copyrighted material if they were notified that it was there. Certainly big movie producers and television producers can afford to pay people to scour these sites for copyrighted material, but it isn't exactly a solution to the problem. My only point was that the downfall in the porn industry is more likely due to the economy than tube sites. I agree that tube sites make it easier to find free content, however I would be interested to see how many of the people using these sites have ever paid for porn. Bunny Lebowski: I'll suck your cock for a thousand dollars. Brandt: Ah hahahahaha! Wonderful woman. We're all, we're all very fond of her. Very free-spirited. | |
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| 09-27-10 11:06pm - 5106 days | #35 | |
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PinkPanther (0)
Active User Posts: 1,136 Registered: Jan 08, '07 Location: Oakland, CA |
While piracy is certainly a problem - there are many forums I know of where you can download full sets and full vids in fine quality - if you have endless amount of time on your hands to use upload/download sites - I also believe that many of these forums also function as advertisements for the sites. I certainly found out about the existence of a lot of porn sites originally through forums and Yahoo groups that were posting a mix of legitimately released samples and pirated material. I'll also make the point that the music industry was completely against radio playing recorded music when that started because "nobody would buy a record if they could hear it for free on radio", which is about as intelligent as "only a moron pays for porn." Frankly, the number of forums posting quality free material is decreasing and they themselves are hurting for dollars, having the most intrusive ads you've ever seen in your life. Why? Because the over-riding thing affecting the porn industry, like every other industry dependant on consumer spending, is the horrible fucking economy. | |
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| 09-28-10 12:08am - 5106 days | #36 | |
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anyonebutme (0)
Active User  Posts: 294 Registered: Aug 23, '09 |
*sigh* There is a *huge* difference between piracy 10 years ago, and piracy today. 10 years ago it was just individuals placing a few random photos / videos into their shared folder. Today piracy is an industry of itself. Pirating porn is a full time job. There is one website out there that is dedicated to maintaining the full collection of Private Media Group on filesharing hosts for free. Other forums are dedicated to creating site-rips of as many websites as they can, updated weekly, often times updated daily with all the content exactly as it is available on the website. The porn industry is getting whacked from all sides. Part piracy, part economy, part that piracy has trapped sites into what I think is an unsustainable subscription model. Just take a look at your last review when you said of Teen Models "Not a huge site, still could use some more growth." I think the site is up to 700 or so updates, all available for the monthly price of $25, how much more do you need before you consider a site worthy? I remember someone recently complaining that he hit a download limit after downloading around 100 scenes in the first day of a $20 subscription. Another user upset that he hit a download limit on another site while attempting to do a site-rip on a $3 trial subscription. The perceived value of porn in the eyes of even many paying consumers does not match the reality of the costs of producing porn. Forget piracy, when the economy recovers, will the person who currently does site-rips on $3 trials be motivated to buy a long-term subscription? I don't think so. The guy who currently surfs pornhub.com for free today, will he start spending more on subscriptions to other sites when the economy recovers? He does not value porn and that is not going to change. | |
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| 09-28-10 12:39am - 5106 days | #37 | |
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anyonebutme (0)
Active User Posts: 294 Registered: Aug 23, '09 |
And the point that still has not been touched upon in this thread: Piracy absolutely has a demoralizing affect on content producers. Talk all you want about other factors like the economy, none have the same affect as someone who sees all his works on every piracy site across the net, with hit counters tallying in the hundreds of thousands of views, while he has yet to even break even on his investment in the product. | |
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| 09-28-10 01:29am - 5106 days | #38 | |
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lk2fireone (0)
Active User  Posts: 3,618 Registered: Nov 14, '08 Location: CA |
justme, you don't have to look on the dark side of everything. The porn site owner who sees his works spread across the net can feel a glow of satisfaction that he is doing his part in spreading joy to the world.  We might live in a capitalistic society, but not everything is valued in dollars and cents. | |
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| 09-28-10 02:13am - 5106 days | #39 | |
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slutty (0)
Active User Posts: 475 Registered: Mar 02, '09 Location: Pennsylvania |
Dude, I gave the site an 88, I wasn't complaining, I was just stating a fact - 700 updates or whatever isn't huge these days. *sigh* If you clasify that as huge, what do you call Karups, Videobox, Twistys, Nubiles, etc? Gifuckingnormous? If porn has become undervalued, isn't it the monster sites like these that are to blame, not the consumer? If I can go to grocery store A and get a dozen eggs for $1 or grocery store B and get 3 dozen of the same quality eggs for the same price, where will I shop? I don't know how the industry can put that cat back in the bag at this point. Piracy now certainly is more technologically advanced than it was years ago, my point is were any of the people you speak of likely to pay for porn anyway, ever? I am guessing most of these folks will take what they can get for free - regardless of what it is - always have, always will. So I don't know that porn sites are losing that many customers that would otherwise be paying. Just curious, what is a possible sustainable model? Pay per scene? Streaming only? In a down economy, businesses always fail, I'm sure including porn. Bunny Lebowski: I'll suck your cock for a thousand dollars. Brandt: Ah hahahahaha! Wonderful woman. We're all, we're all very fond of her. Very free-spirited. Edited on Sep 28, 2010, 02:26am | |
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| 09-28-10 02:36am - 5106 days | #40 | |
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malikstarks (0)
Active User Posts: 108 Registered: Nov 19, '07 Location: Florida |
Good points justme, I really feel worse for the producers, not us as collectors. Let's face it, there's probably enough content floating out there that we haven't even seen yet to sustain most of us for the rest of our lives. This country wouldn't be the same, however. | |
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| 09-28-10 03:15am - 5106 days | #41 | |
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BadMrFrosty (0)
Active User Posts: 124 Registered: Mar 05, '10 Location: Prague (Czech Republic) |
Protecting content is, has and always will be a impossible game of cat and mouse. As soon as a new method of protecting content is dreamt up, it may work for a while but will be eventually cracked. Making videos streaming only is not protecting your content. If you have the right tools, streamed content can be downloaded just as easily as downloading via links. What is stopping the pirates saving your stream and making that available for download via filesharing sites? All that happens is your paying customers may become pirates because they cant download what they want via their PAID membership but can via a filesharing site. I believe the porn sites need to start thinking outside of the box and start providing features with memberships that inherantly cannot be pirated. Things like live shows, chats with models, user interaction, competitions etc. When the user feels that they are getting things with their membership that cannot be got elsewhere, for free or otherwise, they would be more willing to subscribe and keep subscribing. Of course there will always be people that would never pay for porn but how can you with a straight face say that you have lost a sale when they download something for free? The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? Frank Zappa | |
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| 10-02-10 04:00pm - 5101 days | #42 | |
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Ed2009 (0)
Suspended Webmaster  Posts: 509 Registered: Sep 12, '09 Location: Wales, UK |
Spot on MrFrosty. Piracy will destroy the adult industry just like piracy has destroyed the music industry and the movie industry (ie it won't), and they're already complaining about the publishing industry. I think the simple truth is that there will always be a good proportion of people who don't want to get stuff illegally, whether or not there is any risk. That might well leave fewer people for the industry to sell to, and therefore less producers, but that's about it. I think one thing that everyone seems to forget is that there is simply much more competition for people's web browsing time. Social networking, tube sites, StumbleUpon, Twitter, etc. all compete for time. It used to be that people would get online, check e-mail for a few minutes and then spend the rest of the time looking for stuff that interested them. Now by the time they've spent an hour or two on Facebook etc. they simply don't have as much time to look for porn. Just think how easy it is to lose a few hours on YouTube. Personally I think I have benefited more from piracy advertising my sites than I have from stolen content losing me sales, but there's no real way to measure it. Webmaster of StripGameCentral and A Measure of Curiosity. | |
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| 10-02-10 08:18pm - 5101 days | #43 | |
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Sevrin (0)
Active User  Posts: 80 Registered: May 30, '10 |
I spend far more money and time on camsites than on porn these days. It's all live streamed, but that content also gets copied and posted to tube sites as well. The quality is horrible, but... bbobies! The result is that cam sites are more popular than ever. Content theft is a much bigger problem for producers of traditional porn images and videos, but I attribute the problems producers are having generally these days more to unemployment due to outsourcing and the crappy economy than to theft. People like spending money on orgasms, but if they don't have it to spend, they'll steal. | |
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| 10-03-10 10:41am - 5100 days | #44 | |
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malikstarks (0)
Active User Posts: 108 Registered: Nov 19, '07 Location: Florida |
I think I should clarify as a member at Scoreland, that they have not gone all streaming, at least not yet. Rather the quote in the original post was in regard to their newest big time model Valerie Irene, which they have chosen to allow streaming only vids. They still are putting out down-loadable vids, at least for now. | |
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| 10-03-10 01:18pm - 5100 days | #45 | |
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Monahan (0)
Active User  Posts: 348 Registered: Jan 17, '07 Location: SF Valley, CA |
Any site that moves in a direction of letting streaming take over from download-able better do some careful market research first. I will, for sure, cancel memberships in any site that goes mostly, or exclusively, to streaming. | |
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| 10-03-10 06:44pm - 5100 days | #46 | |
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pat362 (0)
Active User Posts: 3,575 Registered: Jan 23, '07 Location: canada |
I've visited a couple of tube sites in the past and I've yet to see one where the content was remotely watchable. For the most part I found them to be bigger advertising tools than anything else. That doesn't mean that these people aren't stealing money from the content producer and shouldn't be closed but I just can't imagine that most people enjoy watching porn on tube sites. Long live the Brown Coats. | |
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