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| Porn Users Forum » Fake Breasts! |
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| 04-05-09 05:23pm - 5740 days | #51 | |
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lk2fireone (0)
Active User  Posts: 3,618 Registered: Nov 14, '08 Location: CA |
I was looking over some Luis Royo paintings, and I realized that, in addition to the spikes coming out of their heads, most of these girls/women have implants as well. Is there silicone in fantasy-land, or do they use something else? Maybe the blood of virgins? | |
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| 04-05-09 05:45pm - 5740 days | #52 | ||||
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exotics4me (0)
Active User  Posts: 664 Registered: Jan 12, '07 Location: USA |
First Pat, this is the quote I was referring directly to, "Is it possible that women somehow think that implants will appeal to man and therfore get them without first asking us whether we want them". Now, I'm not trying to hang you Pat, as I think most of the thread had already said indirectly that women make a decision to change their body for men, and that as I told Drooler, is bullshit. It shows a feeling of male supremacy over women and all I did was say that I think it was sad that men still believe everything a woman does to her body is for us. The message, as I told Drooler, was not a caring message. Read the first post and many of the other ones. It was about simply, "I do not like women with implants because I don't find those attractive." It wasn't about the poor woman who had something bad happen, there was posts about that, but it wasn't the reason for this thread or else the title would be, "Breasts, why we want women to understand that we're not as superficial as they think we are".
There is positive and negative in everything and there probably is something positive here, but and I quote, "who loves fake breasts, it's just I find them ugly, like a bad mutilation", "but those artificial looking cones stuck on the chest practically draw your eyes to them and take away from the beauty of the whole person." Those were comments made in the first few posts, and there is nothing positive there. I'm not even for sure that there is that much positive here. Because the majority of the posts are based on the belief that women change their bodies to impress men, that was the negativity. I guess if you believe that we should tell fat people to stop eating as positive and a way to help them, then you could find positivity in this thread, but outside of some long reaches, there really isn't much.
No I don't find it sad that some women feel they need implants to feel good about themselves. Self-image is self-image for a reason, because it about what that person feels about themselves. It isn't something I can tell them to feel or it would be called "exotics-image". And seeing that we do not have a female in this discussion, it became a typical male thing of believing they do it all for us. So we tell them we don't like those implants. Maybe they do. Maybe when they step out of the shower and look in the mirror, they feel good. I am 100% positive that they wouldn't respond positively to being called a mutilation.
My wife doesn't want implants, she wanted men to stop trying to think for women and to stop putting women down for not being what men want them to be. And I disagree completely. If my wife or any other wife or girlfriend wanted implants then it is her right to get them without asking anyone's opinion. When I married my wife it wasn't just based on what she looked like, so why would I consider what she might look like if she had plastic surgery? Hopefully, you do give men more credit than that? We are talking about marriage, not just a porn star in that part. My first time I jacked off, I thought I'd invented it. I looked down at my sloppy handful of junk and thought, This is going to make me rich. - Chuck Palahniuk | ||||
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| 04-05-09 06:03pm - 5740 days | #53 | ||
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exotics4me (0)
Active User Posts: 664 Registered: Jan 12, '07 Location: USA |
Well messmer, you're being quite short-sighted. Are all women natural? No. So by saying about natural women, "We are happy to marry them" means the not natural women, whether tattooed or implants, are screwed because us men say they are not perfect and can't be perfect because they don't fit our image of what perfect is. Not being degrading...except to all women who don't fit your image of what a woman is supposed to be. That's not degrading to not natural women?
The point there is simple. We don't know that all women get them because they feel inferior. I used the example of the gorgeous Euro model Zafira, one of her boobs was bigger than other in their natural state, it bothered her, she has been one of the world's top models for several years now, it never stopped her, but it just bothered HER that one of her boobs was bigger than the other, so she had implants that didn't even look to increase her size. And again, what is the belief that we can tell people what they should and shouldn't feel inferior about? And again, who says they get implants because they feel inferior? My first time I jacked off, I thought I'd invented it. I looked down at my sloppy handful of junk and thought, This is going to make me rich. - Chuck Palahniuk | ||
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| 04-05-09 06:13pm - 5740 days | #54 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User  Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
Looking at all of the posts I really think mine was the only one with any negativity. I don't think for one moment that most men still think that what a woman does for, or to her body is for us, and I don't think anyone here has said that. In porn as in prostitution the answer would be yes, as these models are taking off their clothes and/or having sex for money. So they have to look good, and may wish to resort to cosmetic surgery as they feel it is necessary. I am really pleaed that a lot of us here are saying that, what we find looks the best, is a lack of too much artificial stuff, and cosmetic surgery. Outside porn I have never been in any doubt about why a woman looks the way she does. I have asked a number of women over the years about why they want to look slimmer, have bigger breasts, smaller breast, different nose etc. The answers may not all be the same, but when it comes down to it, the answers are nearly always unanimous in saying it is not about how it looks to men. Of course they could be lying but I don't think so. Some of them have said it is all about how it looks to other women and being accepted as beautiful by other women. These were not gay or lesbian women. My views may be backward but they are honest ones. It may be upsetting, but that's just me. Sometimes I think you have to be honest. But at no time here has there been the suggestion that women should have to ask men about what they do to their bodies. How can anyone who is supposed to be a psychologist so badly misinterpret the spirit of what is being said here? That is not meant as an attack. It is no more an attack than you considering some of the things said here as negative. I don't mind that at all, as I consider you are right. But I also consider what is being said as very positive too, in that men hate to see women get painful, expensive, and dangerous surgery. The men here also think it doesn't look good either. As I have said, I don't really think it is about men at all anyway. That in itself is positive. Even if some men think that the reason women outside porn have cosmetic surgery is for them, they are wrong. It is much more about self esteem. But I also think that if society as a whole (that's men and women) consider cosmetic surgery on a normal healthy body to be unacceptable, than this will filter through, and hopefully most women will look to other ways to bolster low self esteem or a miserable life. That can only be positive. Incidentally one side of the body is larger than the other. In women it is generally the left side. Therefore the left hand, breast, foot, will be larger than the right. In men it is generally the right that is larger than the left. So Mr Porn really does have some basis in reality. Edited on Apr 05, 2009, 06:18pm | |
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| 04-05-09 07:09pm - 5740 days | #55 | |
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pat362 (0)
Active User  Posts: 3,575 Registered: Jan 23, '07 Location: canada |
I think you and I will have to agree to disagree on that last one. I do find it sad. Not because implants might make them happier but because they think it will. It's one thing to plan a new look but quite another when it involves your physical health. We aren't talking about getting your hair cut in a new style or dyed a new color. We are talking about major intrusive surgery that in some cases can lead to complication and death. The fact that we have trivialized breast implants where you now hear stories of tenage girls asking their parents for them on their sweet sixteen biryhday tells you that women now have an unrealistic idea of physical perfection. We're talking about fake breasts as it pertains to pornstars, but frankly this can easily be applied to singers, TV and movies stars as well. I could name at least 5-10 right off the bat that fall in one of these 3 catgories. I don't think a single man told them that's what they wanted from them. Long live the Brown Coats. | |
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| 04-05-09 07:38pm - 5740 days | #56 | |
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messmer (0)
Disabled User  Posts: 2,582 Registered: Sep 12, '07 Location: Canada |
Exotics4me wrote: "Well messmer, you're being quite short-sighted. Are all women natural? No. So by saying about natural women, "We are happy to marry them" means the not natural women, whether tattooed or implants, are screwed because us men say they are not perfect and can't be perfect because they don't fit our image of what perfect is. Not being degrading...except to all women who don't fit your image of what a woman is supposed to be. That's not degrading to not natural women?" I think that not only are you putting words in my mouth but that you are using strange reasoning as well, exotics4me. The implanted and tattooed and pierced ones will have plenty of admirers nowadays who will think that they are just perfect, otherwise why have a whole DVD full of enhanced breasts? The producers wouldn't make it if they couldn't sell it. I think you just wanted to get a good argument going and you did! :-) It started out with my innocuous question: Who would buy a whole DVD made up of models with breasts that look like over-inflated balloons? Of course it is my own subjective opinion to find them ugly, after all I cannot judge and see but through the veil of my own personal prejudices, but I suspect that there must be more who can tolerate but not understand this pre- occupation with/and desire for two immovable objects planted high up on the chest. This has been confirmed in the meantime. There was only one positive response because there are also many porn users who like the bizarre and that's fine with me and certainly with the top-heavy models and their producers. If you wish I'll rephrase: who would want a whole DVD with nothing but men who are tattooed from head to toe. Or who have pierced penises. If they want the tattoos or piercing, fine, if they feel that's cool, fine with me, too. Are they inferior, no!! Are they different to the point of looking grotesque to a large percentage of the population? I would say yes. I am still trying to find out the mindset of someone who would prefer the artificial to the natural and was quite frankly hoping to get it from you. I was in no way saying that they (men or women) were inferior. Someone might find me of inferior moral fiber for liking porn. (Those who live in glass houses etc.) I am not making judgments .. I am trying to understand. People make fun of older women, people make fun of wrinkles, people make fun of sagging breasts .. to me, young and old, smooth skin or wrinkled, all are beautiful. But I do have a problem with Botox and face lifts and injections into lips and enhanced breasts, or bodies so powdered that every perceived or real blemish is well hidden. Again, if it makes someone feel better, fine, but why not age gracefully. There is beauty to be found in every age group and it doesn't need enhancement. I am an admirer of women (some of my friends have told me I am not being very realistic for putting them on a pedestal) and I believe the self-esteem of the average woman should not need artificial support. Someone out there will find her beautiful and desirable just as she is, guaranteed. That's what I would tell an insecure woman if I were a Psychologist: accept yourself as you are, you don't need to spend $ 10.000 for something that only looks good under a blouse or jacket but truly looks plastic the moment you take off that blouse. Not only that, quite frequently, they find to their shock after the operation, that they still don't like their self-image. But someone else (magazines, fashion editors, catty colleagues, porn producers in our argument, a spurned or bored, or under-sexed boyfriend) has put this notion in her head that in order to be desirable she has to change part of herself when the fault lies with those who cannot accept the little flaws in others. And yes, in the case of Zafira and quite a few others, they might have even put that into their own head because some folks are never happy with their body image, see above. Just look at Michael Jackson. I do not look down on the celebrities, I simply look at their before and after pictures and keep asking, why? And in the case of Porn: why would there be those who insist on big breasts even if one has to alter them if they didn't pre-exist(see original post)? BTW, nothing wrong with big natural breasts. Again, addressed to a Psychologist: why is the cult of big breasts so pre-dominant in North America that people will ignore implants as long as the breasts are huge? And let's always keep in mind that I am talking Porn here, friend. I am not Seinfeld, I don't have an Elaine going around checking to see if "they" are real or not! If I meet a nice woman (I've met her already and have been happily married for many years) what attracts me is the whole person, including her character and if "they" should be artificial or real would be the least of my concerns. In Porn however I am trying to get across, with the help of my friends, to the North American Producers that most of us do prefer natural and that phony body parts are not required to get someone sexually excited. Pudgy, aging and bald Messmer! Edited on Apr 05, 2009, 07:51pm | |
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| 04-05-09 09:10pm - 5740 days | #57 | |
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badandy400 (0)
Active User  Posts: 869 Registered: Mar 02, '08 Location: ohio |
Messmer. I believe a large part of the reason is that we do not get to meet these women in our beloved porn videos. We only see them for what they are shown as. Many people have admitted that they see a less than stellar looking woman and once they get to know them they begin finding them more attractive, and that is great. This simply does not happen with porn. Personally I love breast implants. I do not prefer them to the natural ones by any means. Fake breasts can be a great thing and I have absolutely no issue with seeing a lot of them in porn. When the woman chooses a size that is not unnatural they can really compliment her. Many times when the women are clothed the ones with fake breasts look better than those with naturals. Of course those like Amy Reid tend to challenge that. I know a young woman who has fake breasts and many people she encounters do not realize they are not real. Even at up close and wearing tight revealing clothing they look mostly natural. This is because she have a moderate size put in that was not too much for her body. For her they do nothing but compliment her figure. In her case she did not believe she was ugly or had self esteem issues. After having them done she was not disappointed with the size or how they looked. To be truthful they do not look overly fake when nude. Someone looking from any distance would be hard pressed to realize they were not real. Of course this all describes one person not the masses. The point being that when used within reason breasts implants can go a long way toward enhancing someones appearance. Is it degrading to like the natural look of a woman? Of course not! I believe it is natural for men to be attracted to larger breasts. It is part of the reproductive system and larger breasts signifies a larger ability to reproduce at least subconsciously. It is the ability to reproduce that drives men to women, this is a basic instinct. We tend to like to see large breasts in porn because we wish we could be with a woman like that in real life. Since most women do not have a tiny waist line and huge breasts we turn to where we know we can find that and that is in porn. Of course the large breasts are not real but the desire for them is and that is all that matters. Since we can not feel them or use them it does not matter how they got there as long as they are there. "For example, badandy400 has taken it upon himself to become the one man Library of Congress for porn with a collection that surely will be in Guinness Book of World Records some day." ~Toadsith~ PU Interview | |
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| 04-06-09 08:54am - 5739 days | #58 | |
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messmer (0)
Disabled User Posts: 2,582 Registered: Sep 12, '07 Location: Canada |
Hi badandy, just a quick reply that doesn't do your post justice but my brain is getting tired of all this unaccustomed thinking. :-) Who knows, just like you, I might like implants, too. I might have thousands of pictures of "implanted" models in my collection without being aware of it. If the surgery was done well, then why not. But those super-sized boobs that look like they were stuck on, unyielding, un-jiggling, scar-marred those are the ones I'm against and with most big name porn stars, those are exactly the ones they ended up with. Some scars are discrete and hardly noticeable but generally there should be a slight sag to every big breast, implants in big breasts are obviously phony at first sight because there is no sag, there is that unnatural roundness and fullness that would make me shudder to touch them and for aficionados of big breasts to buy a whole video full of phoniness is something I don't understand. But it exists and by the looks of it there are some that don't understand my views on the subject so I'll let it go without getting a clear-cut answer. Yours was a good attempt at one, but I've also read by reputable Psychologists (NOT Porn users)that it is a unconscious wish to return to Mommies' teats and that, because to a baby a breast looms large, they tend to prefer them that way in later life. Well, it was interesting to get everyone's reaction, but I think I'm talked out! :-) Thanks all! | |
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| 04-06-09 03:24pm - 5739 days | #59 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
Judging by the number, and the sheer length, of the responses here, it is pretty obvious we care about the whole breast issue a great deal, even more so than I would have thought. To exotics4me: I don't think this thread is particularly sexist, at least no more so than any other thread. I believe the guys here feel that women, especially those in porn, get implants to look good for someone else (a primarily male audience, or just males in general), not for themselves. If that makes us sexist, then so be it. Bottom line, women should not be doing anything because of what a guys thinks is beautiful, or even "how it looks to other women and being accepted as beautiful by other women" as TheSquirrel said some women do. As others have touched on above, I think a lot of us dislike fake breasts not simply because that's what we want and our cavemen/1950s opinion is the bottom line, but because we genuinely care about women and we feel that they do it (the implant surgery, as well as a lot of other procedures) for someone else. But if they do it only for themselves, than that is great if it makes them happy, and maybe a lot more women get implants only because they want to and we just have not realized it yet. I prefer women, both in porn and real life, who are reasonably comfortable with what they do and who they are, and yes, that includes looks. I understand that that may be an unrealistically tall order, and also I do not mean say I even begin to understand women, but it can be a lot easier to appreciate a girl's beauty once she appreciates it for herself. "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 04-06-09 06:41pm - 5739 days | #60 | |
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exotics4me (0)
Active User Posts: 664 Registered: Jan 12, '07 Location: USA |
This is more or less a response to several of you. There is no way I can keep replying to each member. To answer the first thing messmer, you're not going to get a clear cut answer from a psychologist or from even a woman. Roughly 350,000 women had breast augmentation surgery in 2007, in America, alone. Anything that I say or any member or any person says will be based on maybe knowing 10 out of those 350,000. I can speculate based on experience with patients, but that is all it would be is speculation, but it wouldn't be a clear-cut answer. One thing to remember for the members is that I don't come here to defend myself and my occupation. You either take it or leave it. It isn't the first time it has happened and it most likely won't be the last time it happens. My comments that set off the last 10 or so replies were not based in psychology, but for me to say that my time in psychology doesn't change the way I think about some things would be ignorant of me. My problems were simple really. I felt like the word "mutilation" was a bit strong. And here is why and what I saw from that. Part of my job is going to suicide calls, accident calls, working with veterans who have returned from wars, and many of them are mutilated, especially the families of those who are in accidents, including botched suicides. To compare those mutilations to a well-bodied, living, person showed the close-mindedness of the members who said that. It shows WHY some women think they have to improve their bodies for men. As you can read from my post that said the overall open-mindedness of the forum dropped with this thread. To further that, tattoos were called mutilations. There are cultures of people, including American Samoan, that look at the tribal tattoos as beautiful and a show of their heritage. Disliking those is one thing, comparing those to accident victims is downright disrespectful and even more so to the families of those accident, war, botched suicide victims. I know many Latinas from southern California that have tattoos that connect them to their neighborhood or area they grew up in, without those, not so much in 2009, but a few years back, they could have been attacked in gang wars without the tattoos. And in doing so, it shows how much importance men put on the bodies of females, as my very first post said, "There is more to beauty than boobs". Now, anyone could say it is the look of natural boobs we like and that is positive, it is telling women you don't have to change for us to make us happy, but what if before she met the man who tells her he doesn't mind her small boobs, what if she wanted larger ones? Would you all, as the posts would lead me to believe, leave a wife if she decided to get implants? Squirrel said that for a "supposed" psychologist, I misinterpreted the comments. As a real psychologist, it is not my job to interpret the way non-psychologists do. Most of my thoughts go beyond the obvious thoughts. If not, why would people go to a psychologist to find out why they have this or that deeply embedded issue? They could just figure out themselves. Men who want women with large implants, from my experience have nothing to do with messmer's Freud theory about the unconscious mind wanting to return to their mom's breasts. Keeping in mind, that Freud theorized in the 1800s and implants were not available or known of until the early part of the 1900s. My belief from experience is that most men who, these days, want a woman with big breasts, even if implants, is no different than a man wanting a $200,000 sports car, a bigger pool in his yard than his neighbor has, nothing more than men wanting to show their big breasted wife off to their friends and co-workers. To say, "My wife has bigger boobs than yours". I believe it was Home Depot that made a commercial about the one guy built a deck on his house, then his neighbor built a deck and gazebo in his yard, and so on. In this day and age of men who find worth in themselves in how rich they are, in how many women they have been with, I do believe that is the biggest reason some men want their wife or girlfriend to have bigger boobs with implants. From the female side of it, there are many different reasons. Of those 350,000 women who had the surgery in 2007, what is the chance that they all did it for the same reasons? None. If a female patient comes to me and says she wants to get implants, then I am going to take several things into consideration. One of them that very few people talk about is if her mother had larger breasts than she has. Mother/daughter competition is actually stronger than father/son competition. There is one reason. I would ask about her female friends, if they have bigger breasts, and maybe even more importantly are those friends with big breasts more successful than the woman wanting them. There is two. I would ask if she was married, and if not, how many of her female friends are married, and if they have bigger breasts than she has. Three. I would ask if she has sisters, and if they have larger breasts and if they are married and/or are more successful. You have to start at the very basic needs of women to find the answer, success, self-image compared to friends/family, marriage, and eventually you can go into the parts that maybe she has an older brother who brought his friends over and they made jokes about her training bra. The society based reasons, maybe someone told her she is "blossoming into a woman" when her boobs first developed and if they didn't develop much more, she believes she never blossomed into a woman. The worst part is, this is only scratching the surface. And messmer to end with a quote from the reputable Freud, "The only thing I ever figured out about women is that I will never understand them or their thoughts". Hopefully this explained everything that I hadn't replied to by the other members, if not, let me know. My first time I jacked off, I thought I'd invented it. I looked down at my sloppy handful of junk and thought, This is going to make me rich. - Chuck Palahniuk Edited on Apr 06, 2009, 06:44pm | |
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| 04-06-09 07:55pm - 5739 days | #61 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
No, because I would feel pretty lucky to have a wife in the first place...but seriously, what kind of husband would I be if I left my spouse over a change in looks? What if the opposite happened, if she got a mastectomy or her looks changed due to an accident and it was all beyond anyone's control? Would I be so utterly cruel and shallow enough to just say "Hey, it's been fun. Goodbye!"? I certainly hope not. I admit that speaking hypothetically about situations which I have never experienced means that I really do not what I would do, but I hope I would look beyond the quickest way out. "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 04-06-09 07:59pm - 5739 days | #62 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
I think the last part of your post really gives a good explanation of what you think and feel. I wondered why you were so very sensitive about the subject and seemed to overreact. I was thinking maybe you can at least look at yourself and see why you feel the way you do, and at least you can try to do that. I can see why now too. A lot of the stuff you have experienced goes deep. I do believe you are very disturbed and upset by some of the comments, and some of the things you have seen and experienced, and I can see why you are upset and reacted so strongly. I have always loved psychology and sociology as a layman. But I also know how these things can lead you down a blind alley. They are certainly not 2+2 = 4 sort of professions. The word "mutilations" is very strong when compared to some of the stuff you have witnessed. But it is also very strong when compared to scars left by botched surgeries or infections, followed by more scars from more surgeries to correct the botched surgeries. I am hoping society will consider breast surgery on healthy breats to be a mutilation, which will hopefully disuade those with a miserable life and lacking in self esteem from having it. That I find very positive. Yes it is up to the female whether or not they want these surgeries, but everything said here has not doubted that, just the opposite. I love how psychology and psychiatry have helped mankind to a certain extent. But I also hate it for screwing up people, because of insistence on a certain line of thought. They delve into the mind and well meaning professionals get it totally wrong and create all sorts of damage. I am wondering whether you are looking down a blind alley when you talk about looking beyond the obvious thoughts. Is this just an excuse to justify what appears to be, on the surface, a total overreaction on your part? Is there something deep inside of you that caused this overreaction. You can go on forever talking about subconscious thoughts. It's a bit like all those religions, each telling everyone what god wants. Yes every religion has a hotline to god. But since god doesn't personally make an appearance to tell everyone what the hell he thinks, no one is really going to know whether he she or it exists, and what he thinks and who is going to burn burn burn. The same goes for psychology. Psychologists can interpret anything in whatever way they choose. I always find them interesting, but I am never sure whether they are right or not, or just don't know, or maybe what has happened to them personally has clouded their thinking. I'm not saying you and they don't contribute. I just tend to be a bit more sceptical, because there are good and bad doctors, psychologists, and builders. Even the best get it wrong sometimes. I think you have totally misjudged the tone of this thread, and I believe it's more to do with your experiences than what is here in reality. On the other hand I think you are one of the best and most entertaining contributors. I want more psychology not less. Although you may not like to talk about it much, as it's you profession. Please don't think that I think that you or your profession are bad. It does sound like I'm having a dig. Maybe I am, but I am hoping it is not considered in a bad way. I really don't mean it in a bad or insulting way. I think your profession really helps a lot of people. It's just like everything else, it has its limitations, and should not be considered 100 per cent reliable. Would I leave my wife/ partner if she decided to have breast implants. It's a Catch 22, or maybe disingenuous question, simply because my partner is not that stupid and mentally inadequate to begin with. I would not be with her in the first place if she were. She sneers at women who do this in the same way I do. Is that something bad in us? Maybe, but as someone who feels and knows the world is terribly unfair, I am disgusted by the medical resources used to mutilate healthy breasts. I have also known a number of cases where the surgery has gone horribly wrong. Thankfully no close friends or relations have had that happen to them, although I have a relation who has had breast surgery. It did make her feel very happy, so maybe there is something to be said for it. I know there are things to be said for it. I have dwelt on the negatives. But I have also said why I think the attitudes here are very positive. I do feel your reaction and mine have been the most negative. I think the rest have been very positive. You can argue that anything you disagree with has subconcious negativity. I tend to be quite sceptical when this sort of thing is claimed. I did deal with the tribal thing in my earlier post. I am well aware of what is done in order to fit in, or to conform. I can understand that. That's why I understand having surgery in order to get rid of blemishes to fit in with what is considered normal. To me the tribal things I have brought up are unsightly and uncivilised, but I can understand human beings wanting to fit in. You can well ask how come I feel they are uncivilised and how come I feel superior, just as I feel superior to those who would have surgery on a healthy body. But I do feel immensely superior to a woman who would do that. I do look at myself and my own negatives, and maybe I don't have a right to feel superior to anyone. But in all honesty I do. Just as I feel superior to a lot of the people you have talked about. But I also know that I could well be in their position through no fault of my own. But the feeling of superiority remains. A contradiciton? I am giving you the ammunition to hit back - but I don't mind that at all. I don't want you to think that this is an attack on you. I realise that you may have your mental fragility and faults, but so do I. I think if you pursue the truth and are honest with yourself, you can start to understand yourself. Only then can you even start to understand other people. On the other hand if anyone wants to tell me this is total bullshit, I promise I wont criticise them. I can understand why you reacted in the highly sensitive way you did. I think your post is as negative as mine is. but I think the others probably said it far better in fewer word than I have, and with better spirit than me. I think their heart is in the right place. I am surprised and disappointed that you misinterpreted the spirit of their posts. I believe you did. Why you did is another question. I accept your criticism of my post as unduly negative. But sometimes you really have to be negative and extreme to get things done. Edited on Apr 06, 2009, 08:14pm | |
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| 04-06-09 08:00pm - 5739 days | #63 | |
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PinkPanther (0)
Active User  Posts: 1,136 Registered: Jan 08, '07 Location: Oakland, CA |
I think that there is a certain amount of realistic plastic surgery and a whole lot of disturbingly un-realistic rather horrifying plastic surgery going on in this country - and it's apparent to me that there is no ethical code being followed by plastic surgeons doing breast augmentation and nose jobs and other facial alteration as there is with things like sex changes where people have to also get psychological treatment before surgeons would to at their genitalia with a knife. Yet I've known women who had boobs that most women would pray to have go out and get boob jobs so they could inflate a sweater - and it wasn't to please the guys around them - because I know for a fact that most guys around this girl were begging her not to do it. There are prominent actresses like Ashlee Simpson that have had gorgeous natural faces hacked away at with scalpels till she looked like a plastic doll - personally I'd like to beat the crap out of the doctor that went and did that instead of encouraging her to get some counseling with someone that might help her recognize how gorgeous she already was. In the porn world, I would say the same about Teagan Presley - she was an incredibly gorgeous woman - now I can't watch her recent scenes - she looks good in some shoots that have been photo-shopped to hell in back, but on video - no, no, no, no, no! Now, exotics if you want to diagnose me as being a male chauvinist low-tolerant neurotic or whatever for thinking these things, go ahead and do so. | |
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| 04-06-09 09:00pm - 5739 days | #64 | |
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exotics4me (0)
Active User Posts: 664 Registered: Jan 12, '07 Location: USA |
Hey Panther, last I checked, I haven't diagnosed anyone. Though I do remember a certain someone telling members last week that some of us have too many emotional ties to other members. Ahem. My first time I jacked off, I thought I'd invented it. I looked down at my sloppy handful of junk and thought, This is going to make me rich. - Chuck Palahniuk Edited on Apr 06, 2009, 09:04pm | |
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| 04-06-09 11:34pm - 5738 days | #65 | |
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exotics4me (0)
Active User Posts: 664 Registered: Jan 12, '07 Location: USA |
I cut your post down to one paragraph, not because I'm just responding to this part, but because the posts are becoming so long. A few things Squirrel. You said that you would like to see more psychology from my posts. Then as you said, you might be making a dig on the subject and as you can see below your post, Panther did a bit of jabbing as well. Why would I waste my time posting to be mocked? The few times psychology has came up, this is the exact thing that happened each time. A good example, you said, "I am giving you the ammunition to hit back". I don't want it nor do I intend to "hit" back. I have nothing to prove here. To bring this all down to a base level. On the sensitivity part. This is a public forum and as I have said before, I respect those who run it and I respect the fact that the forum and site works based on new members joining, as one of the parts of success. Having said that, maybe I do restrain myself at times in my comments. If this were a private forum then I wouldn't restrain myself. As of right now, in your most recent post you called every woman with implants stupid and mentally inadequate. And then you call me sensitive to this thread, even though you also say that you are superior to them. I don't think this forum promotes superiority of any kind. I'm also not for sure how I'm being negative. I've responded to as many of the members as possible, with respect. The only reason you could see my opinion as being negative is because it disagrees with some of the posts. Hopefully, this forum or no forum will ever become one where everyone agrees with each other. To end, if my point wasn't clear earlier in the thread it is now, as you have said the natural woman is superior to other women with implants, AND not just physically, calling those with implants, mentally inadequate. The question I asked about if you would leave your wife if she wanted implants. You didn't answer that, instead, twisting it around in an analytical way. Turboshaft had no problem answering it. It was a simple yes or no question. My guess is, you aren't being as honest and in our faces with your answers as you say are. Answer the question, yes or no, would you leave your wife if she got implants. Simple yes or no will do, it includes hours upon hours of talking to her about it. But she still wants them. Staying or leaving? And to turboshaft, as you can see, it isn't as clear cut of an answer as you thought it would be. My first time I jacked off, I thought I'd invented it. I looked down at my sloppy handful of junk and thought, This is going to make me rich. - Chuck Palahniuk | |
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| 04-07-09 01:09am - 5738 days | #66 | |
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Drooler (0)
Disabled User  Posts: 1,831 Registered: Mar 11, '07 Location: USA |
Originally Posted by Drooler: Ever meet a women who was "beautiful" physically but not inwardly? I don't find them at all attractive. But that still doesn't mean that I don't (nor that you don't) objectify the woman. "Her beauty is the object of my desire." Say that and, BANG!, it's even in the language! Proof positive! I wonder how it is for male peacocks. Are they just pawns in the game, foolishly displaying their plumage to their less endowed female counterparts, not realizing that it's all "objectification" that's going to protect the species from extinction?
The first paragraph above was to demonstrate the kind of language "evidence" used in the arguments I've heard that men objectify women. The second paragraph was to make the point that across species, each gender has its ways of trying to attract the other for the purposes of mating or at least sex; which is to say that it's part of nature. I think that feminists, while noble in their advocacy of women, come across as naive when they say that men objectify women when in fact the women are trying to get the men by making themselves look attractive. And so, true, it wasn't directly on topic, but it wasn't off the broader issue of "objectification," which you raised. Sometimes you thought I was saying that you meant certain things; I did try to make it clear early in my long post that I had things to say about the issue of objectification. Anyway, I can still understand how you might have thought I meant you; I didn't say "This doesn't refer to exotics per se." As for everything else, I'm just going to leave it be. I think the whole discussion is getting kinda hairy and there's just so much craziness I can take at one time! Besides, while I have my viewpoints and opinions, these are big social issues and I find it hard to discuss them without becoming a poor communicator about what I mean, what I think others mean, etc. etc. I wanted something new, so I left England for New England. | |
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| 04-07-09 05:48am - 5738 days | #67 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
I will agree one thing - my posts are definitely too long! Sorry guys. I'll stick with what I said, especially the bit about not being with a woman who is so mentally inadequate she feels she needs implants. What I could have said with far fewer words, is that I was wondering why the overreaction by Exotics, which seemed totally out of place and out of synch with the other posts? He has answered that from the way he talks about the problems he has experienced in his job. I think the answer to his reaction maybe lies more with what is in him, rather than what is contained in the other posts. In his profession he has experienced so much, he is over sensitive to what has happened to people physically. As far as the word mutilation goes, I shall stick with it, as it applies. Especially as female circumcision is referred to as "genital mutilation." There are degrees, and different types of mutilation. In life there are always degrees. It's just one word amongst many, that describes things. It's just sometimes people can be over sensitive to what is said. I was so worried about trying to be respectful and not getting into an argument, I was just waffling, trying not to be too attacking. But I failed. I guess Exotics fell into the same trap, and the posts were long. I think at least we have learned we can argue and disagree without it descending into chaos. My answer to the question about would I stick with a woman who had implants is the same. It is simply a question that doesn't apply as I would never be with someone that mentally inadequate in the first place. But I can sort of answer it using a line of thought. I would stick with her whatever, through thick and thin, disability, physical or mental traumas, as she is my life and I love her dearly. If she suddenly had mental problems, I am well aware how changes in the brain can change a person, I would still stick with her, even though she would be a different person. So the answer to the question would be "yes." I didn't mean to mock you or sound like I was mocking you. I am well aware of my faults and shortfalls. I am someone who always makes fun of myself as well as other people. Maybe it's a way of self protection, but I do think it helps to be realistic about yourself. I prefer people who can be serious but don't treat themselves so seriously they don't have a sense of humour, and don't realise their own faults and arrogances. It's all part of life. Sorry - one more thing. Exotics, if you think something needs to be said then say it. That includes everything in this thread. It doesn't matter if people mock or disagree. At least it's out there. People can read it and make up their own minds. Edited on Apr 07, 2009, 09:00am | |
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| 04-07-09 07:56am - 5738 days | #68 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
Drooler, without a doubt, you, Pat and Messmer said what you wanted to say a hell of a lot more clearly, and better than I have. At least the two sides can all agree to disagree without it getting nasty. Edited on Apr 07, 2009, 08:13am | |
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| 04-07-09 10:56am - 5738 days | #69 | |
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GCode (0)
Active User  Posts: 386 Registered: Feb 23, '09 Location: USA |
Ok bear with me, this is gonna be long cause I stayed out but I want to speak up a bit, so read if you want :) I don't feel exotics is being personally attacked completely but I am disliking that his field of expertise is coming in play a lot here. I have a degree in psychology and I do not do one on one counseling but group therapy involving troubled teens, I am educated in this field. One of my largest concerns for people outside of the psychology field, is they assume that people come to psychologists for answers and they just tell them what and why. While most patients are expecting clear cut answers from telling their feelings, this is not what a psychologists should do. If you go to a psychologist that does this, they should be reported to the board to get their lisence revoked. A psychologists main goal is to help guide a patient in to their own mind to help their own self make conclusions and get answers on their own using methods that have been scientifically researched to do this the most adequetly. Therefore, a psychologist should not be telling anyone what and what not to do. Anyways, I don't want to go on about this too much. This is not a psychologists unite response but I had to say something. As for the reasons why women get breasts implants or tattoos, of course, there is no real one reason why. Everyone's mind set is different, therefore, making pretty much any 'reason' why someone does anything as impossible. However, using the scientific method, research can help explain why something is done because the majority didn't do it for a certain reason. However, some people still do these things for a reason that is in the minority so nothing is ever completely 'proved' as the reason WHY people do things. So all in all, it's just too hard to know why women get implants. But, some may (including myself) use common sense, and everyone here makes valid points which are great assumptions as to why a woman gets implants. Therefore, everyone's reason is credible and I don't think anyone is fails in their assumptons. As for the point that women are mentally inadaquete when making this decision is a bit skewed in my opinion. Yes, it can hurt the body and probably even lead to problems down the road, but so does plenty of other things that make people feel better about themselves and I would not lump all these people in to being mentally inadaquete. But, this also comes down to people's trust in doctors. The majority of people in all societies hold doctors up on a higher standard and forget that not everything a doctor does is completely safe. Also, even hearing stories about things happening or even seeing it first hand does not even easily sway people away from doing things. This can be seen with alcohol and drugs as a great example, people just have a preexisting conscious that things will not happen to them even if it's quite obvious. Therefore, with this combo of doctors' perceptions and the preconcieved notion that nothing will happen to one's self, it's easy for most woman to make the decision to get implants and being safe. However, I do agree with the point of feeling pressure to get implants in the porn world to stay 'on top' of their careers. How manipulated these women truly are I am not sure of, but if it does involve the fact that the woman's career would be actually 'crushed' or threats to it if they do not do it, it should be looked at with genuine concern. As to return to the actual question of the post about the dvd. Yes, I can see this being quite popular. I am probably still considered a 'youth' amongst a lot of you but I can tell you one thing, I believe a combo of youthful naivness and popular culture as to what is considered hot in the media plays a huge role as to what is found attractive. This can be seen throughout time as different styles of look and fashion change due to popular demand. During my teens and in college, the plastic barbie doll appearance was stunning to me because that's what I saw. This was a true consensus for most of my peers as well. As I got and get older (still young:)) I found this look less and less appealing. I think this is just because I am more of an adult and have a more carefree thought process or maybe I just can think on my own better without much influence. Therefore, I can see a lot of people buying that dvd, it's what people expect a 'dream girl' to look like, huge titties on a smaller frame. Ok, I'm rambling a bit now I think....so I'll stop here. -GCode Sexted From My iPad | |
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| 04-07-09 11:04am - 5738 days | #70 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
GCode, I hope you don't mind me butting in here again as I've already said too much but I'll keep it simple. Great post (IMO). | |
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| 04-07-09 01:28pm - 5738 days | #71 | |
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messmer (0)
Disabled User Posts: 2,582 Registered: Sep 12, '07 Location: Canada |
Hey, GCode, thanks for reminding me that there is an age gap, especially when it comes to tastes in Porn. I could only judge anyone's reaction to that DVD by my own disgust for it, forgetting how age and the likes and dislikes of our peers will shape our tastes, not only in Porn, but in just about everything. For instance, we've had many of our posters (I'm one of them) express the desire to see pubic hair make a come-back, yet for anyone between the ages of eighteen and, let's say, thirty, it seems to have become almost something "unclean," even disgusting. The remarks on some of the web sites like Videobox, when it comes to "hairy" DVDs make that very clear. So, thank you again. I keep forgetting that there is a world of difference in taste between folks recently out of their teens and those who've lived a bit longer. I've known it all along, and this gap has existed in every generation, but sadly I don't make enough of an allowance for it in my dealings with others. I am still wondering if it wouldn't be a wonderful thing to have our age listed next to our nick names. I think that would be one of the best guides when it comes to judging someone's reviews and if a site is suitable for someone over/or under a certain age. I still remember Twisty's with a shudder. Which is another subject altogether. :-) Edited on Apr 07, 2009, 01:53pm | |
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| 04-07-09 01:40pm - 5738 days | #72 | |
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messmer (0)
Disabled User Posts: 2,582 Registered: Sep 12, '07 Location: Canada |
Nothing to do with Porn DVDs but interesting just the same. I just came across this while I was looking for the article that promoted the view that men like big breasts because they long to return to Mommy's teats! :-) Breast Implants Don't Solve Underlying Self-esteem Issues By John M. Grohol, Psy.D. September 21, 2006 A study conducted among 24,600 women by two University of Laval Faculty of Medicine researchers and their colleagues from the Canadian Public Health Agency and Cancer Care Ontario concludes that having breast implants does not increase mortality risk. However, the study reveals that the suicide rate among women with breast implants is 73% higher than in the general population. These findings are published in a recent issue of the American Journal of Epidemiology. This finding is not surprising, since many women seek out breast enhancement surgery for reasons of low self-esteem or because they lack self-confidence. They believe that the surgery will create a new person that they can then build upon. All too often, however, the surgery only highlights the flaws in the person's life, as they cope with the pain and recovery of the surgery on their own. Previous studies have observed that the psychological profile of women who receive breast implants is characterized by low self-esteem, lack of self-confidence, and more frequent mental illnesses such as depression. Ethical doctors should refer women who have such problems to a therapist or psychologist for treatment before undertaking plastic surgery. Plastic surgery cannot treat a lack of self-confidence or depression. Edited on Apr 07, 2009, 01:51pm | |
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| 04-07-09 02:20pm - 5738 days | #73 | |
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Drooler (0)
Disabled User Posts: 1,831 Registered: Mar 11, '07 Location: USA |
Doesn't surprise me that cosmetic surgery does not resolve low self-esteem. There's probably a "euphoria" stage after recovery from a successful surgery ... then the demons within return and the torment resumes. The "you're not good enough" demons. Somewhere along the way, I learned that I have a mind, and that my mind is capable of all kinds of nasty mischief. It took understanding that what my mind is saying to me about myself is just stuff, a lot of negative stuff, collected over the years. After an earlier life that featured a lot of self-loathing, I managed to shift my attention to other things, like helping other people and just learning things. The nasty stuff of self-hatred gradually just fades away due to the inattention to it. This can take years. So cosmetic surgery, or even new clothes, isn't the answer. Something more like Zen would be better. And that doesn't necessarily mean sitting and chanting and meditating. It does mean exploring the nature of "reality" and how it gets created. Well, let's see what kind of responses this will draw, if any. Please don't make me hate myself. (LOL) I wanted something new, so I left England for New England. | |
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| 04-07-09 02:22pm - 5738 days | #74 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
The above hardly comes as a surprise. I think I have finally put my finger on why the post by Exotics bugged me. It's this... "I think most of the thread had already said indirectly that women make a decision to change their body for men, and that as I told Drooler, is bullshit." No it hasn't. That and the whole tone to me was an overreaction. Then I overreacted to the overreaction, by making long waffling posts which I hoped would not be too offensive. Everyone has said that no this is not what has been said. It wasn't said, and as far as I can remember in the short time I have been here, it has never been said here. Now women changing their appearance to appear in porn - yes, obviously that is in a way changing their appearance for men, as they are being paid to have sex for men to look at. So they want to look, what is considered the best. My reaction was as negative as Exotics, but I now sort of understand why he overreacted and was so sensitive. The rest of the posts have been great. Even Exotics makes some great points, but it was that one thing that bugged me. Edited on Apr 07, 2009, 02:25pm | |
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| 04-07-09 02:54pm - 5738 days | #75 | |
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messmer (0)
Disabled User Posts: 2,582 Registered: Sep 12, '07 Location: Canada |
Not me, Drooler! I admire overcomers and the way you found to do this by taking your mind off yourself and putting it on others by helping them. I had the same problem, lack of confidence in myself and my abilities, self-loathing until gradually, over the years, I learned to like myself. No special method or trick, I just slowly realized, just as you did, that your mind, re-enforced by bad childhood experiences, can paint pictures that aren't true. I am no longer a harsh taskmaster to myself and one of the nice side effects of learning to love yourself is the fact that you are now less inclined to look down on others' weaknesses and "sins!" I have my moments, but still and all, I think I'm advancing! :-) Edited on Apr 07, 2009, 03:08pm | |
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| 04-07-09 03:02pm - 5738 days | #76 | |
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messmer (0)
Disabled User Posts: 2,582 Registered: Sep 12, '07 Location: Canada |
Yep, I saw exotics' post (sorry exotics, I am not posting by you, just trying to save myself another reply) as an overreaction myself, but having seen the reasons for that overreaction I can now see why he reacted the way he did. This reminds me once again that there are so many backgrounds and ages and views and hurts and pre-conceived notions in a public forum that it is almost impossible not to hurt or insult someone. I admire this group for having stayed civil through it all. You don't see that on the usenet!! Edited on Apr 07, 2009, 03:10pm | |
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| 04-07-09 03:14pm - 5738 days | #77 | |
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GCode (0)
Active User Posts: 386 Registered: Feb 23, '09 Location: USA |
Hmm, I can see a lot of ages in user name's profiles. I think it is optional but the majority you can see their ages next to the gender. The civility and opinions is what makes me like this place a lot so far and I'm glad I found my way here. I hope we can have more discussions like this and it can stay like this. In my eyes, this discussion never got out of hand and I hope no one was personally pissed. Shit, talking about fake breasts here is more civil amongst my peers in real time..... :) -GCode Sexted From My iPad | |
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| 04-07-09 04:03pm - 5738 days | #78 | |
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messmer (0)
Disabled User Posts: 2,582 Registered: Sep 12, '07 Location: Canada |
I would have to agree with that last sentence, GCode! :-) When I was talking about having the age next to the nic I was thinking more of having it right by the review so that we don't always have to go to the profiles to find out how old a reviewer is. I guess I'm getting lazy! LOL. | |
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| 04-07-09 07:09pm - 5738 days | #79 | |
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pat362 (0)
Active User Posts: 3,575 Registered: Jan 23, '07 Location: canada |
I have a suggestion in case some people don't really want their age posted beside their name of avatar. We could have little icons. How about 18-25 is a motorcycle. That's the rebel age when you don't give a rats ass about your actions since the world is new and you have all your life ahead. 25-30 is a sporty sedan. Your more mature, ready to settle down and start a family. for the 35-45 a mini van because now is the beginning of the old fart phas. the age of driving the kids to all the activity. I leave to you guys to come up with anything above 45 or make a suggestion. Long live the Brown Coats. | |
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| 04-07-09 07:27pm - 5738 days | #80 | |
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exotics4me (0)
Active User Posts: 664 Registered: Jan 12, '07 Location: USA |
Just wanted to touch on this part Drooler, my own time away from PU on other forums over the years, I was just used to when I see a name in quotes in a post by another member, that the post is directed at who is in the quote box in the post. My first time I jacked off, I thought I'd invented it. I looked down at my sloppy handful of junk and thought, This is going to make me rich. - Chuck Palahniuk Edited on Apr 07, 2009, 08:04pm | |
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| 04-07-09 07:34pm - 5738 days | #81 | |
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GCode (0)
Active User Posts: 386 Registered: Feb 23, '09 Location: USA |
What a about a limp penis. OHHH JUST KIDDING!!!! To keep it in the spirit of all things motors, how about a boat and an old muscle car because you old timers have all the good toys nowadays :) Sexted From My iPad | |
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| 04-07-09 08:02pm - 5738 days | #82 | |
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exotics4me (0)
Active User Posts: 664 Registered: Jan 12, '07 Location: USA |
Just a quick one on this one, I quoted, I believe Pat earlier, though not the only one, his was the most obvious that asked why women do not come to men and ask what men want. If you read that different than me, then I don't know what to tell you. I read things directly and it said women should ask men if that is what they want. As a matter of fact, when I first that quoted part it was directly below the post by Pat that said it. My first time I jacked off, I thought I'd invented it. I looked down at my sloppy handful of junk and thought, This is going to make me rich. - Chuck Palahniuk Edited on Apr 08, 2009, 12:43am | |
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| 04-08-09 12:12am - 5737 days | #83 | |
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exotics4me (0)
Active User Posts: 664 Registered: Jan 12, '07 Location: USA |
I don't think it is so much that the posts are that long, but when we quote and entire long post, then type out a whole new post below it, it becomes very long then, which is again, why I cut this down to the first paragraph, but will comment on several parts of the full post. The first thing I think we need to do is to understand that I'm not hurt by being mocked. My point was, I don't like taking that much time to post long or longer threads to be mocked. As I told someone on here a few weeks ago, it is nothing more the dummying down what I said in my posts and I won't take the time to do that. I also think, similar to the discussion about us all being of different ages, in some cases, large differences in our ages, that there is also is an environment, location difference between most of us. I doubt that you or some of the others were around when I explained this back a year or so ago, so I will try to keep it short. Do a google search for Hollenbeck District gangs. Most people know of Compton, Watts, in California, because of pop culture, rap music, movies, even Sanford and Son, it was supposed to be set in Watts. Hollenbeck is where I grew up, and its name isn't that well known. But it is a roughly 15 mile piece of land in California, on those 15 miles are 34 known and armed gangs. My job in psychology isn't the reason for any sensitivity, my raising in Hollenbeck is. It was that raising that made me go into psychology. I can look back at old yearbooks/annuals from elementary school and of my 10 closest friends in those, only 3 lived to graduate high school, because of gang violence. Talking about that and about gangs to most people is a joke. They believe gangs are all made up of middle class kids that are trying to rebel and be tough. But those gangs in Hollenbeck, that date back to the 1930s, with one that is still going today called, "White Fences" gang, are mostly very poor people who use the gang as their jobs and livelihood. Because of that, I never took the option of making fun of others, because I wouldn't be here today if I did so growing up. I think that could be one of the most important things about these discussions. Even as I told Drooler earlier in this thread, if a group of women were here making fun of men, I would be the first to defend those men. It is in my nature to do that. There are no women members actively posting here and I would have to wonder what kind of situation we have, when talking about staying civil, if there was say two female members and both had implants. This is why I mentioned it is a public forum. I don't think you or I or anyone else believes a woman with implants would respond too kindly to being called mentally inadequate. While it is your opinion and we do have freedom of speech, I would still say that a very ugly situation would come from it if a woman with implants read that. You also said if something needs to be said then say it. I did, and you see what it turned into. As a longtime blogger, the most common comment I have received as a compliment is "Everything you say has a lightning rod tied to it". I don't know why that is. As for restraining myself, I do so because of how I was raised. We didn't speak our minds fully or we wouldn't be here if we did. That is the main point or points I wanted to make in reply to this post. I do want to say that most any member here can say that I don't lose my temper or hold grudges, I just thought some boundaries were crossed and there are no hard feelings or anything like that. Last, I do want to show you one thing that most psychologists deal with, at the first of the post and in another post, you mentioned that you were trying to get me to look inside myself. Yet, you don't agree with most psychology? Think about that for a few minutes. My first time I jacked off, I thought I'd invented it. I looked down at my sloppy handful of junk and thought, This is going to make me rich. - Chuck Palahniuk | |
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| 04-08-09 12:37am - 5737 days | #84 | |
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exotics4me (0)
Active User Posts: 664 Registered: Jan 12, '07 Location: USA |
Messmer, the theory you are talking about, I should have said more to further what I said about it was originally by Sigmund Freud in his introduction to the nature/nurture discussion. I'm sure as with every study, historical book, others have tried to change, or even further it, but the original can be found in the Complete Works of Sigmund Freud, Nature/Nurture chapter. The belief was not a physical attraction according to Freud, it wasn't even so much a mental attraction, as it was men craving to be nurtured by a woman like their mother nurtured them. Depending on how much Freud you have read, as much as I respect his work and do consider myself a Freudian Psychologist, I will be the first to say the old man was a pervert. Many of his theories took on sexual descriptions. And while I agree with most of the quoted part, though it isn't really specific. The numbers I have say that in the first 10 years after implants, the suicide rate does not increase at all. In the 10-20 years after implants it goes up 3 times as much and more than 20 years, up 5 times. That comes from the American Psychologists Association website. I do think that changes the study in some ways. After 10 years, who knows, maybe the woman has a new issue with maybe her weight now or aging issue. The one thing I don't agree with in it is that plastic surgery cannot treat a lack of self-confidence. How many overweight people do we know that had no confidence until they lost weight? Depression, whole other story there. My first time I jacked off, I thought I'd invented it. I looked down at my sloppy handful of junk and thought, This is going to make me rich. - Chuck Palahniuk | |
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| 04-08-09 12:44am - 5737 days | #85 | |
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exotics4me (0)
Active User Posts: 664 Registered: Jan 12, '07 Location: USA |
Sorry doubled it from above. Just a quick one on this one, I quoted, I believe Pat earlier, though not the only one, his was the most obvious that asked why women do not come to men and ask what men want. If you read that different than me, then I don't know what to tell you. I read things directly and it said women should ask men if that is what they want. As a matter of fact, when I first said that quoted part it was directly below the post by Pat that said it. My first time I jacked off, I thought I'd invented it. I looked down at my sloppy handful of junk and thought, This is going to make me rich. - Chuck Palahniuk | |
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| 04-08-09 02:02am - 5737 days | #86 | |
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Drooler (0)
Disabled User Posts: 1,831 Registered: Mar 11, '07 Location: USA |
OK, exotics. Sarcasm from you is OK. If you prefer to ignore my intentions and my explanations of what I'm saying and about whom, fine. If you really want to present yourself here as a stuck up hypocrite who can't get off his high horse, well, that's you. I wanted something new, so I left England for New England. | |
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| 04-08-09 06:28am - 5737 days | #87 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
Yes I read it. It wasn't anything like you said. It didn't read in the slightest bit like women should ask men about whether to have breast implants. This is what he said... "I am kind of tired to be blamed for women getting implants. Is it possible that women somehow think that implants will appeal to man and therefore get them without first asking us whether we want them??? " Taken together and in conjunction with everything else Pat said, it isn't even close to how you interpreted it. The same goes for the rest of the posts, except mine. Mine are negative. On the other hand I realise you interpreted it in your own way, and that is not a crime. It would be wrong of me to say or infer that makes you a bad person. I guess we just disagree on this one. "Last, I do want to show you one thing that most psychologists deal with, at the first of the post and in another post, you mentioned that you were trying to get me to look inside myself. Yet, you don't agree with most psychology? Think about that for a few minutes." For the record, I belive psychology helps people generally, that's why I was interested and studied it when I was younger. (That was over 30 years ago though.) Like any other profession, there are good and bad professionals, and even the best get it wrong. Sometimes they are dragged down and drag their profession down by their own hubris. So what I meant was, you have to be analytical and sceptical about everything, especially about the mind. At the same time psychology and psychiatry help a lot of people. "I have always loved psychology and sociology as a layman. But I also know how these things can lead you down a blind alley. They are certainly not 2+2 = 4 sort of professions." Some doctors, both physical and mental can be so arrogant they do harm. At the same time we need their professions to help us. It's just there needs to be constant monitoring, and a realisation that they are not always right and that there are many things left to be discovered. (The Cleveland child abuse scandal was an horrendous case of arrogance by doctors in this country.) I believe in questioning everything, clearly so do you. I was very surprised how you got the tone wrong of what was being said, and misinterpreted what was being said. However your explanation and subsequent history makes excellent reading. "You also said if something needs to be said then say it. I did, and you see what it turned into." What?! Nothing except an excellent thread (IMO) containing some great thoughts and arguments on both sides. (Okay my posts contained too much waffle, and I am not that happy with them.) Better end it here before I start waffling again. Great thread in my opinion. The main thing is the arguments and opinions are out there. Would you get this sort of thread anywhere else on a public forum, let alone a porn one, with 2 psychologists involved? Very unlikely. Just one more thing as a late edit. Personally I do believe that plastic surgery for some can improve lifestyle, lift depression, and increase self worth. Not all the time, but sometimes it can work. Maybe it was missed, but I did tell you about the relation who had implants. She was much happier afterwards. Whether it can help many, or help permanently, I don't know. Edited on Apr 08, 2009, 11:17am | |
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| 04-08-09 08:04am - 5737 days | #88 | |
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messmer (0)
Disabled User Posts: 2,582 Registered: Sep 12, '07 Location: Canada |
An icon of a bush? I think that is THE subject that really separates the generations. :-) | |
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| 04-08-09 12:19pm - 5737 days | #89 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
Lol. Yeah, but so do a lot of other things, and I think posting ages is pointless, since they are in the profiles and I do not think they are relevant to everything we say here. For one thing, personal tastes -- regardless if they are somehow associated with a certain generation or not -- can often supersede the importance of a member's age group. I admit that a lot of my own personal tastes are not necessarily unique to me but more to my generation as a whole, but I also hate, almost more than anything, being lumped into something simply because of my age, and that includes any positive stereotypes as well. I also extend this to other generations besides my own, because I have heard and read too many times about how a person's age, or the year in which they were born, has had so much of a good/bad effect on that person. I respect older users because they might have more experience or knowledge about something than I do, but that doesn't mean they are immune to enjoying something because it is a product of a younger generation, and younger members don't necessarily have to only like things that are supposedly more their style. "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 04-08-09 02:23pm - 5737 days | #90 | |
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messmer (0)
Disabled User Posts: 2,582 Registered: Sep 12, '07 Location: Canada |
You make some good points, turboshaft! I do have the tendency to generalize a bit too much! :-) In connection with the suggestion that the age be shown next to the icon, that was more tongue-in-cheek than something I would actually like to see introduced. I just sometimes marvel (just as one example) how something as sexy as a luxuriant bush can become anathema in the space of a generation and how that is reflected in the remarks and ratings of some of the younger reviewers. You would never hear anyone over fifty complain about hair on a model. On the other hand, it must be a heck of a lot easier on the nurses now when they have to prep a patient for an operation. :-) | |
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| 04-08-09 07:30pm - 5737 days | #91 | |
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pat362 (0)
Active User Posts: 3,575 Registered: Jan 23, '07 Location: canada |
I like that idea of a bush icon. It is possibly one of our most obvious age specific fetish for lack of a better term. At leastr our youger membes would consider bush to be a fetish. For me it's part of my porn history. I can't remember the first time I saw a clean shaven bush. It must have been a mid 80's movie because I remember a new kind of fetish making it's apparition: shaving scenes or videos. Long live the Brown Coats. | |
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| 04-08-09 07:40pm - 5737 days | #92 | |
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exotics4me (0)
Active User Posts: 664 Registered: Jan 12, '07 Location: USA |
Damn, Drooler, all I did was explain why I thought you were talking to just me. In your reply, it said that you weren't talking to just me "per se". So I replied and explained the misunderstanding on MY part. How was that sarcastic? For that matter, let me make myself very clear if I haven't already. I do NOT hide behind sarcasm. If you're still going on the objectification of women and how that makes me a hypocrite since I am a porn fan too, you've not followed along. I told you earlier in a reply that I KNOW I objectify women, but I do not do it in a negative way. And there is no way any member can say this thread is not negative because they are not females with implants. And yes, you can go all Aristotle about it and go "Well, what is the difference, negative, positive, it is all objectification" but that doesn't change my feelings towards the negativity in this thread. If you want me to answer something directly then say, "Answer this" because as you can see, I have 5-6 people, I have been responding to and I can't keep up with everything asked, I even said, "If I forgot something, let me know". There was NO need in making this personal. My first time I jacked off, I thought I'd invented it. I looked down at my sloppy handful of junk and thought, This is going to make me rich. - Chuck Palahniuk | |
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| 04-08-09 08:03pm - 5737 days | #93 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
Yes, I have made my own share of comments against bush, using terms such as "scary hairy" or even "hairy," though I would argue that it is my own personal experiences (long story that will never be told here) that have shaped my tastes and not "my" generation. I also do not remember seeing shaved models when I found my first porn, and it was definitely not as widespread or as mainstream as it is now, though models were trimmed. Now if you prefer a bush it is considered a fetish, something I am sure older users here never thought would happen. (Who knows, maybe vaginal sex will one day go out of style in porn and it will be niched into a fetish category of its own?) My (and others') use of the word hairy can be considered generational because older fans probably think of this as normal, not something to make a note of or be disgusted by. This is somewhat like how some younger fans might not mind the heavily tattooed or pierced girls but older fans might find them unsightly...but these two specific topics have been covered in other threads. "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 04-08-09 10:07pm - 5736 days | #94 | |
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PinkPanther (0)
Active User Posts: 1,136 Registered: Jan 08, '07 Location: Oakland, CA |
I don't know that it's all that generational - I'm over 50. I like tattoos, find them rather hot, though I'm not interested in committing to having anything inked onto my bod - or spending the money for it, don't particularly care for untrimmed pussy - I certainly am not attracted to the "hairy" stuff. Landing strips or other kinds of trimmed pussy look good to me on most women. A lot of women older than 21 or so don't look good to me shaven. I dunno why - what looks hot to me looks hot, what doesn't doesn't. I'm a simple man. | |
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| 04-08-09 11:29pm - 5736 days | #95 | |
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exotics4me (0)
Active User Posts: 664 Registered: Jan 12, '07 Location: USA |
See Squirrel, when you continue to tell me that I misinterpreted what was said, that is saying I'm wrong. Something that I don't think anybody here has understood is that we are all men here. How many times have men been talking about something pertaining to women, and thinking, how positive and open-minded we were being, until a woman joins the conversation and tells us how much shit we're full of? I don't expect you or Pat or several of the others to say, "Yeah, it was offensive" because that would go against what you all have already said. I don't expect you or anyone else to say, "Yes, you understood it, I just said it wrong". So, until we get several women, especially those with implants on here to tell if it was offensive to them, I don't see a point in continuing to go back and forth about it. Keeping in mind, my original post was based on my wife's reaction to the thread, so I know of at least one woman who took it as negative towards women. The next part, I don't think you understood my point when I mentioned you saying to look inside myself. As I said, it is a problem that psychologists go through these days, when a non-psychologist tells a psychologist how to find something within themselves, or in another similar situation, when a non-lawyer tells a lawyer about law. I have had this happen multiple times on here and other forums and always use this example. When you go to get your car repaired do you give the mechanic advice on how to fix it? I look inside myself daily as part of my job. And looking within one's self is often the best answer to psychological problems. As for psychologists being skeptics and analytical. I'm not in most cases. I'm never skeptical of a patient, why would I be? I'm there to earn their trust. The only way I become close to analytical can be read above in the questions asked of a female patient who wants implants. There are many different types of psychologists. My concentration or expertise is in positivity. Instead of taking a patient on a journey into their past to find a problem, I take them in a positive future that is the solution to repair their past wounds. I find that taking patients to their past only brings up more hard memories that they are already dealing with. If I can help them believe in themselves for tomorrow, they can in turn, forget about yesterday. I chose to be this type of psychologist because the positive future road is what helped me myself with my past. I also believe in working with my patients to understand that what happened 10 years ago, can never be changed. But allowing it to change the way they approach the future can be negatively effected by continuing to dwell on those things from their past. And while I do agree with you completely about bad doctors, both medical and mental, it is a shame that the ones of us that strive to push our field have to be grouped in with those bad ones. In my 5 years of direct patient work, I refuse to recommend any type of pills for a patient. As I said on here one time before, I've never believed in treating a chemical imbalance with more chemicals that will only serve as a stopgap until the pill wears off and they need more, eventually leading the patient to dependency on the drug to be happy and feel normal. I do agree also that the discussion has stayed civil for the most part, but even so, there has been a couple of pretty immature jabs at me in some of the posts. I read the part about your relation to a female with implants, and how it had changed her in a positive way, which I guess made me wonder why you were still so much against the surgery. At this rate, we'll top 100 replies. My first time I jacked off, I thought I'd invented it. I looked down at my sloppy handful of junk and thought, This is going to make me rich. - Chuck Palahniuk | |
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| 04-09-09 06:39am - 5736 days | #96 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
Well I didn't say you weren't wrong, I just said it didn't make you a bad person! Okay I guess it would be bad of me to say you are definitely wrong because I cannot prove what is in the hearts of Pat, Messmer, or Drooler. I just take what they have said at face value. I just read what they said and believe that represents their views. Obviously I do believe you are wrong, but that is just a belief. My argument and the reason I was bugged, was not really about whether their posts might be considered to be negative. I'll agree to disagree on that, and I have already given my reasons why. It was more about the claim that the posts read as though the posters said that women should ask men about getting implants. The key to that is the line "I am kind of tired to be blamed for women getting implants," added to the fact that Pat and Drooler then went on to say that was not what they meant, and I think then went on to suggest that you misinterpreted them and ignored what they really said. Whether people think what they actually posted was negative that is something else. It was how it was turned around and misinterpreted. So yes I think you are wrong on the intentions of the posters. Only the posters know what is in their hearts, but when people get misinterpreted it does sort of annoy them. It bugged me, and is why I considered it must be more of what is in your mind than their's. I don't need to be a psychologist to wonder why what was posted was misinterpreted. If you wonder about the annoyance from some of the members, it probably has less to do with telling them they are wrong or negative, it is misinterpreting what they say, and then telling them they're wrong or negative. That becomes more personal. There's nothing necessarily wrong about that either, but it is guaranteed to cause annoyance and a reaction. On the other hand I have said if you think something needs to be said then say it. I have never been in a conversation when a woman has told me I was full of shit, not in conversation about women or sex or the sexes anyway. Maybe politically, but I can give as good as I get. If I think a woman is full of shit I'll tell her, because just as many as men are. Then I'll produce evidence to back it up. I admire the sort of doctor you seem to be, and the reasons you chose that path. It's hard to grasp the nature of what you are from the few things said in posts, but from what I can make out I sort of like it. I have no doubt I would be someone who would wind up your sensitivities and drive you round the bend if we ever met in "real life." I would sort of take a perverse pleasure in seeing your sensitivities squirm as I launch my views on life, love, sex, politics etc. I mentioned the thing about my relation having breast surgery because I believe in the truth. I know people who are religious and have had religious experiences. As an atheist I can believe them, or just reject the evidence as lies,stupidity, or illusion. That is what I believe ignorance is, and it would be ignorant of me. In life you have to confront all truth and all evidence, then draw a conclusion. There are scientists who have rejected results of experiments because they disagree with their ideas or theories. That I believe is ignorant. I could have left the bit out about my feeling superior mentally to women who have had breast surgery. But that's how I feel, therefore I have said it. That doesn't necessarily mean I am superior, it's just the way I feel. I have not seen a lot of evidence to suggest breast surgery does help a lot of women permanently, but I have seen some evidence to suggest it helps some for some time at least. If there were more evidence to suggest that it makes their lives better in the long run, even though it wont cure all their problems, I think I would be less negative. I would still regard it as a mutilation, but that is irrelevant, because If something helps medically, then it has to be considered. Even electric shock treatment. Did it work? I don't know. Maybe medical competence will improve. Until then I will regard most of those who have breast surgery as sad, inferior, air headed losers with a lack of self esteem, who have mutilated themselves. I may even ask "where are the bolts in your neck?" Just got back and did some much needed edits. I guess I'm still waffling. "At this rate, we'll top 100 replies." - Here's to the next 100! Edited on Apr 09, 2009, 01:55pm | |
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| 04-13-09 03:13pm - 5732 days | #97 | |
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messmer (0)
Disabled User Posts: 2,582 Registered: Sep 12, '07 Location: Canada |
I guess it would help if, to every post, one added a P.S. "There may be some exceptions to every rule." :-) | |
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| 04-13-09 04:42pm - 5732 days | #98 | |
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Wittyguy (0)
Active User  Posts: 1,138 Registered: Feb 04, '08 Location: Left Coast, USA |
I have no idea what to think about this thread any more other than that A) I'm staying clear, and B) There's a definitely a forum award or two brewing from this one. | |
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| 04-16-09 06:47am - 5729 days | #99 | |
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wiild1 (0)
Unverified User Posts: 52 Registered: Apr 14, '07 Location: UK |
Yeah, a couple of awards for "longest posts" perhaps. I am interested in this subject but I must admit that I got tired reading all these VERY long posts, some of them are almost novels. | |
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| 04-16-09 09:07am - 5729 days | #100 | |
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Denner (0)
Active User  Posts: 1,217 Registered: Mar 03, '07 Location: Denmark |
Amazing - this got to be one of the threads with most replies... But anyway or because of that: don't we love those tits? "I don't drink anymore - I freeze it, and eat it like a popcicle" | |
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