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| Porn Users Forum » Off topic - Mosque at Ground Zero |
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| 08-24-10 06:15am - 5234 days | Original Post - #1 | |
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Denner (0)
Active User  Posts: 1,217 Registered: Mar 03, '07 Location: Denmark |
Off topic - Mosque at Ground Zero Been away for a while, but then this: What do you guys think about a mosque at Ground Zero? Do those who gave the ok realize the noise and bad feelings listening to that muslim call for prayer over gigantic loudspeakers several time a day/week.. We have a debate here in little ol' Denmark against - not the mosques - but the call for prayer that suddenly would terrorize whole city areas with noise. Would you like to hear this all the time in your neighborhood: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKwfOc2UZ9o ..and this cartoon says a lot: http://jp.dk/indland/article2151124.ece?...leRight&imgNum=0  "I don't drink anymore - I freeze it, and eat it like a popcicle" Edited on Aug 24, 2010, 06:27am | |
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| 08-24-10 09:01am - 5234 days | #2 | |
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anyonebutme (0)
Active User  Posts: 294 Registered: Aug 23, '09 |
While I do not have a problem with a mosque at that location, I respect those who do have objections. Too bad our politicians of both parties have turned this discussion into a partisan vote grab for this fall. Building a mosque does not mean it will blast a call for prayer. A friend of mine recently lived in an apartment close to two Catholic churches that still rang their bells multiple times every day. There are noise laws in the U.S. applying to many Catholic churches silencing their bells, and those same laws will apply to the mosques. | |
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| 08-24-10 11:07am - 5234 days | #3 | |
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badandy400 (0)
Active User  Posts: 869 Registered: Mar 02, '08 Location: ohio |
It is reasonable to assume that those who want the mosque are not those who attacked 9-11. We can not let the actions of a few dictate how a who are is treated. Every race and religion has people that will do evil things. The Japanese attacked us 70 years ago at Pearl Harbor, but most do not see them as a threat. Similarly those who want the mosque are not a threat. On the other hand, the Japanese have not asked to put anything that might be seen by the locals as disrespectful. What it comes down to is we can not single people out because of their religion, but they are not showing the appropriate sensitivity. We should not deny them because America is supposed to be a tolerant place, but I have lost respect for them. As I said, it is not the same people who attacked on 9-11 but they know full well that they are associated with them. As for getting on a speaker, that would show even more disrespect. People will not be happy about the mosque to begin with, the last thing they need is for it to be shoved down their throats everyday. Surely some noise ordinance could take care of that. And if they are not willing to compromise on that issue than...   "For example, badandy400 has taken it upon himself to become the one man Library of Congress for porn with a collection that surely will be in Guinness Book of World Records some day." ~Toadsith~PU Interview | |
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| 08-24-10 12:14pm - 5234 days | #4 | ||
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
I agree; once the politicians, ex-politicians, wannabe politicians, and others with personal political interests at stake got involved, the 'discussion' aspect got flushed right down the toilet. I have my opinions but at this point I don't care how it turns out--I am so sick of these stupid go-nowhere wedge issues that do nothing more than stir the stew of stupidity in America rather than actually lead to any meaningful debate or understanding. I don't feel as if it has gone beyond the "9/11 hijackers were Muslim, the mosque would attract Muslims who harbor feelings against the U.S., therefore building it would support terrorism." Okay, it's not quite that simple but it sure feels that way. At this point it would be nice just to build it in order to say that something, anything, has been built at Ground Zero after nearly nine years.
I doubt public prayer calls would be allowed. First, New York City has pretty strict noise laws, to the point where honking is even illegal in Manhattan, except for emergency purposes, though it's not heavily enforced apparently. Second, I have not heard or read about the other mosques in the area (there are already several in downtown Manhattan) doing such a thing, again possibly because of noise laws, or residents are just not that open-minded about foreign religions. Also I don't think it's technically going to be a mosque, but a "Community Center" (that's what the Cordoba Initiative's website calls it), but that might be as genuine as calling a proposed mega-church a "Spiritual Fitness Center" or some other bullshit name--and referring to the Porn Users site as an online arts and entertainment forum!  I am personally torn between the rights they have (1st Amendment anyone?) and common sense when dealing with us angry Americans--I think the term 'respect' left the building years ago, so I don't use it. They have every right to build whatever the hell they want, within building codes and regulations, and could probably even legally build in the foundation of the Twin Towers themselves if they had the money...though Teabaggers might take up suicide bombing if that happened. But people should consider their rights within the context of common sense and practicality. I--in theory--have the right to buy and own porn as an adult, but it would be a little much to ask that it be handed out for free in libraries and churches (for now...  ), that just wouldn't be sensible. Kind of reminds of the recent controversy over radio hostess Dr. Laura using the 'n-word' repeatedly on her show. She has every right to say it, repeatedly and freely if she 'need' be, but common sense says that people would get upset if she did. "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | ||
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| 08-24-10 01:39pm - 5234 days | #5 | |
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Wittyguy (0)
Active User  Posts: 1,138 Registered: Feb 04, '08 Location: Left Coast, USA |
This summer's version of the "Balloon Boy" fiasco is the current Ground Zero Mosque march of misinformation. The only thing the controversy is good for is giving Fox news something to blather on about besides the run-up to the Fall election. In my humble opinion; "BUILD THE DAMN THING AND BE DONE WITH IT" (although it most likely won't get built because they don't have enough money on hand to secure financing ... America gets it's revenge). I will disclose that I live on the opposite end of the country, have been in NY for a grand total of a few hours and don't know anyone who was part of 9/11. Even if this weren't the case I'd still support it. Why? 1. Because nothing says desecration of hallowed ground more than moving into an abandoned Burlington coat factory building. The proposed mosque is two blocks away from the WTC area in a less than glamorous section of Manhattan that has a lot of strip clubs and other "unsavory" businesses in the area. Let's get real, isn't it really more of a desecration to rebuild on the site with tall office towers, essentially building upon a grave site for all those vaporized in the aftermath. No one's complaining much about commerce and the powers that be going on with business and signing up future tenants for the space. 2. Because they were already there before all this crap started. The groups seeking to build has previously used the space for prayer before all this got started. Things just blew up when they sought a building permit. I guess as long as you don't advertise your faith or take down the old "Coat Factory Grand Liquidation Sale" signs you're OK. 3. Because it's not just a "mosque". The proposal is to build a community center with a fitness center, study rooms and other amenities; it's not just a house of prayer. Giving young people something to do or a means to get off the street apparently doesn't cut it anymore? 4. Because it just serves as a means of diminishing ourselves. We all say we like the first amendment but apparently that all ends when something you don't like pops up in your own backyard (although you don't hear much about the possible mosque neighbors, just the rest of the country). All this does is make us look like hypocrits to the rest of the world and serves as great p.r. and fund raising fodder for actual muslim radicals and terror groups. 5. Because it's nothing more than a campaign of fear mongering. The imam who would lead the mosque has frequently been held up a nice, commonsense guy (even by the same Fox News idiots who now claim he's a terrorist) who has been sent on muslim outreach junkets by the US government. The Daily Show has been rightfully unmerciless in exposing a lot of the fantasy and hypocrisy involved in this (here's a great little article about "terror funding" for the mosque ... that would actually be coming from Fox's parent company second largest shareholder). If any of the supposed terrorism stuff were true I'd be against it but really the whole anti-mosque dialogue has been hijacked by the right wing nut jobs looking for something to fire up the idiots who don't know any better. 6. Because it's not disrespectful. As I noted in another thread, do people get bent out of shape if a catholic church is situated near a playground or school? Timothy McVeigh said he was a Christian but would anyone object to a church being built near the Oklahoma City federal courthouse? The anti-mosque argument just serves to equate a religion with the acts of a radical minority. It's sort of like the ethnic cleansing genocides in the Balkans and in Africa; "you must die because your ancestors came from somewhere else". To say that someone is responsible for the sins of someone they've never met and have never had any indirect contact with is nothing more than basic bigotry. If some group wants to build a house of prayer and community center and contribute to the neighborhood and community, who cares. Just because some sadistic jihadists committed a large scale act of terror doesn't mean that those associated with their religion cannot meet and pray because some people think it's disrespectful. The first amendment gives you the right to express your opinion; it does not give you hecklers veto power over any perceived slight. Historically, religions of all types have too often served as the fuel for starting and justifying horrific acts against other people. If someone wants to promote the good and decent side of their religion why is that disrespectful? Actually, I have to cede ground to Charlton Heston (in his NRA wingnut days) who gives a wonderful and concise argument about why the hysteria over this situation is unwarranted. Here's the clip (start at about 7:15 into into it to hear him). Edited on Aug 24, 2010, 02:08pm | |
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| 08-24-10 04:55pm - 5234 days | #6 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
Hey, fear sells! Available from your preferred news media outlet 24/7.  I'm not "on the opposite end of the country" but I still don't live in New York and as such I really don't think my opinion counts much compared to those of residents who this building would directly affect. I guess I'm pissed at all these people butting in who are not living, working, or governing in New York City--from Obama to Palin, and whoever the hell pops up in between. Even if the people of NYC decide not to build it then fine, it was their decision, not the people of the U.S. Personally I'd prefer that they get it built too just so we don't have to add it to that ever-growing list of things-America-can't-do (I guess it would go right next to not rebuilding the actual site of the Twin Towers). Are we really so unintelligent and xenophobic that we can't distinguish between those who perpetuated the 9/11 attacks and those who wish to build this center? If so, then lets ban the building of new Catholic churches or cathedrals, because some in the Catholic church can't help from raping children so lets just lump them all together and be done with it! Hell, lets just stop building all religious centers, places of worship, buildings, and whatever else until we figure this shit out and determine the one true faith! I honestly have yet to see any of the supposed good religion has done so far for this country, besides pit good people against one another so they can fight over petty imagined differences and silly nonsensical rules and traditions. Everybody should just chill out, relax, and get laid, or get some porn and do the next best thing. "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove Edited on Aug 24, 2010, 10:41pm | |
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| 08-24-10 09:35pm - 5234 days | #7 | |
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PinkPanther (0)
Active User  Posts: 1,136 Registered: Jan 08, '07 Location: Oakland, CA |
Actually the head cleric of this proposed mosque is someone that the US has sent to various countries to propagandize about how cool the US is to Moslems. So much for that, I suppose. But anybody that didn't know that this was going to be controversial had their head quite a ways up their bum. Especially with building at or around Ground Zero, there's got to be a lot of looking for a semblance of community concensus. Anything else is just asking for trouble for no good reason. | |
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| 08-24-10 10:49pm - 5233 days | #8 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
I honestly think many of the people are upset because almost nothing has been built in place of the where the Twin Towers stood. That fact that it has taken so long just to decide what, and even if, to build there is probably an indicator that the whole Ground Zero area will be a source of controversy for decades to come. "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 08-25-10 12:31am - 5233 days | #9 | |
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slutty (0)
Active User Posts: 475 Registered: Mar 02, '09 Location: Pennsylvania |
I totally agree with Wittyguy, it is a Burlington Coat Factory location, not ground zero. And even if it were ground zero, as long as it isn't being built on public land, it is not the place of government to decide what type of facility can be built on private land. I can't stand these fuckwits at Fox News that pull passages out of the consitution when it suits their needs, but freely contradict it when they feel like doing some more fear mongering. People need to relax a little bit, damn. I can't see any way the government would be able to prevent it from being built, nor should they. A very very very small percentage of muslims are terrorists, and doing the Fox News style six-degrees of seperation crap is stupid, I'm sure you could connect Glenn Beck to Hitler in a similar fashion. Also, Wittyguy according to NPR there have been several protests at mosques around the country, I think one was in Michigan and one was in Kentucky or something? Bunny Lebowski: I'll suck your cock for a thousand dollars. Brandt: Ah hahahahaha! Wonderful woman. We're all, we're all very fond of her. Very free-spirited. | |
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| 08-25-10 02:42am - 5233 days | #10 | |
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Drooler (0)
Disabled User  Posts: 1,831 Registered: Mar 11, '07 Location: USA |
I'm really with WittyGuy on this one. I also say, "Build it!" The US needs to say to its Muslim population, and to Muslims around the word, that they are respected and accepted by us. Just for there to be a controversy over the building of it sends the wrong message to them. We've more likely to live in peace with Muslims if we accept the mosque than if we reject it. The US continues in its strange duality of being a world power, a world leader, and an insular nation with voices in the media that fearmonger, distort the truth, and just plain lie like there's no tomorrow. I think it is kind of sick for these people to be churning political capital for themselves over the building of that mosque. And it SHOULD NOT be offensive to those who lost loved ones in 9-11, any more than if a McDonald's or an Outback or a church or a synagogue were being build there. Islam does not equal terrorism. I wanted something new, so I left England for New England. | |
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| 08-25-10 05:00am - 5233 days | #11 | |
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Sevrin (0)
Active User  Posts: 80 Registered: May 30, '10 |
Either there is freedom of religion or there isn't. | |
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| 08-25-10 06:42am - 5233 days | #12 | |
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Denner (0)
Active User Posts: 1,217 Registered: Mar 03, '07 Location: Denmark |
Lot of fine and decent views/comments here.. But there's apparently a lot of differences between the conditions/views in US/Canada and Europe: A lot here in Europe do not talk about 'religion' in connection with this matter (the fast growing of number of mosques ect.), but more like 'cultural differences' between the western 'way of life' and the muslim ditto imported from the Middle East, Far East ect. You COULD seek the reason for the different views (in general) in this fact, that some Norwegian professor stated: 'The traditional emigrant countries: USA, Canada and Australia has very strict laws about emigration - nobody gets to live (legally)in those countries if they cannot prove they can provide for themselves - whereas millions and millions from the Third World (especially Arab countries and Pakistan ect.), has seek fortune by emigrating to European countries where they live on social welfare financed by others. This has created an instability between these immigrants and the original inhabitants and drained the European finances'. Does this instability make 'most' Europeans more intolerant? And BTW - do not compare anything with Europe/Germany in the 1930th - and if anybody should go out on that line: Did you know that Hitler had several SS-divisions with muslims: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfLvP2jTVq8 "I don't drink anymore - I freeze it, and eat it like a popcicle" Edited on Aug 25, 2010, 07:34am | |
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| 08-25-10 11:54am - 5233 days | #13 | |
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slutty (0)
Active User Posts: 475 Registered: Mar 02, '09 Location: Pennsylvania |
Denner, I don't know that europeans are any more tolerant to muslims than the average American. I think the views expressed by most of the PUs from US are probably unforunately not representative of the US population at large. Although I doubt actions taken by countries like Switzerland and France would fly here - as lawsuits would probably prevent it on consitutional grounds - I don't think much of the population would oppose such actions in the US. With respect to immigrants, the US certainly does not have a history of being tolerant there, and it is a common view here in Arizona that the reason the economy here is so bad is because (illegal) immigrants place a strain on social services and provide little or no tax revenue. Bunny Lebowski: I'll suck your cock for a thousand dollars. Brandt: Ah hahahahaha! Wonderful woman. We're all, we're all very fond of her. Very free-spirited. | |
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| 08-25-10 02:00pm - 5233 days | #14 | |
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Wittyguy (0)
Active User Posts: 1,138 Registered: Feb 04, '08 Location: Left Coast, USA |
I think if anything, despite all the anti-immigrant Tea Party blowhards as of late, Europe does have a harder time dealing with Muslim immigrants. A lot of the muslim people here are converts or second generation immigrants. Europe has been pretty homogeneous both racially and culturally for so long that it becomes difficult to accept an sudden influx of foreigners. Another problem Europe in general has is that there is still a lot of issues dealing with social class. In America, at least there is the myth that anyone can become anything they want to if you work hard enough. Most of the immigrants who come here legally buy into this and usually become "Americanized" within a generation. Europe has problems because a lot of career roads are blocked to immigrants due the need to graduate from the "right schools" or have the "right pedigree" to succeed. A big part of the violent immigrant protests in France a few years ago was that they were basically shoved into modern ghettos on the outskirts of France and the government / French society just ignored them by giving them second class schooling and no jobs or job training. The result is that the French got a bunch of angry young second generation immigrants who weren't accepted and integrated into the mainstream and who were facing a future without a lot of hope. The Euros aren't doing themselves any favors by passing laws against women wearing hijabs in public, criminalizing some types of supposed radical speech, or limiting the construction of mosques. All this does in further entrench and alienate the same culture your trying to integrate with. Lastly, Europe has never really had to deal with "race" as an issue. We've been dealing with since the Civil War and it still gets discussed and played out quite a bit today. Because Europe has been so homogeneous for so long (I'm ignoring that little Serb vs. Croat thing here) they now have to face up to the fact that racism is a problem; one that they're still grappling with. Good luck over there. | |
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| 08-25-10 02:40pm - 5233 days | #15 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
Yes, that crazy Godwin's Law. I guess you're guilty of mentioning them first in this thread, but only because you were trying to preempt anyone from going down that well-trodden path, so you're off the hook. Don't worry though, America has had a long, ugly history of anti-immigration nuttiness, including the 1930s. In fact, I recently read an article about how periods of economic stagnation, recession, depression, whatever, usually heat up the anti-immigration fires, and they then die back down when the economy improves. Hey, you gotta find someone to scapegoat for everyone's woes. "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove Edited on Aug 25, 2010, 02:44pm | |
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| 08-25-10 02:59pm - 5233 days | #16 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
Actually I would argue we've been dealing with race since day one of the U.S., or even all the way back to when Columbus set foot in the Caribbean. Read up a little on his voyages to the New World, or just his first one. He basically regarded the indigenous populations he encountered as nothing more than underdressed savages and thus quickly kidnapped, enslaved, and attacked them. So much for friendly greetings. That was just the tip of the iceberg and things have been going downhill from there ever since.  Imagine if he had just been a simple pervert and spent his time and effort trying to make friendly 'relations' with them instead.  "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 08-25-10 03:26pm - 5233 days | #17 | |
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Sevrin (0)
Active User Posts: 80 Registered: May 30, '10 |
If you think that Europe hasn't had to deal with "race" as an issue, you might want to check with six million Jews, two or three million Soviet war prisoners, a couple of million Poles and up to one and half million Roma whose experience contradicts that thesis, and those are only the ones who died. As Turbo says, Americans have had to deal with the issue since well before the Civil War. For instance, I'd guess the slaves had fairly strong opinions on the matter well before it came to that point. | |
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| 08-25-10 03:32pm - 5233 days | #18 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User  Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
I would regard the building of a mosque as an insult to those who died, and I would expect quite a few of those connected would feel the same. To avoid the insult, the mosque shouldn't be built. It seems if you insult their people and their god they kill you, and consider they have the right to do so. Building a mosque at Ground Zero I regard an insult to those who died, to the American people, and the Christian god. Personally I hate all religion, so am not arguing from an alternative religious point of view. I think of the insult and hurt it would cause those who have already been through such pain. They start to heal and this sort of thing happens. It is similar to the pain caused by letting the Lockerbie bomber go. It's time we started protecting and supporting our own, and being more sensitive to our own people rather than being politically correct and bending over backwards for those who hate our guts. The Lockerbie decision looked to be a money decision by the Scottish government. They care as little for those who died as those who did the killing. Wouldn't expect anything different from government. As always it is the innocent who suffer most. | |
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| 08-25-10 04:42pm - 5233 days | #19 | |
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Wittyguy (0)
Active User Posts: 1,138 Registered: Feb 04, '08 Location: Left Coast, USA |
Damn, Severin had to bring up that whole damn Nazi thing (proving Turboshaft's prophecy correct). I guess I should have made more clear my point about "overt racism" as opposed to generic racism. It's pretty hard to discriminate against a Jew or a Pole just by looking at them because they don't look much different from a lot of people. It's a lot easier to diss someone who just by their appearance is different from you or your society in general. The only way that the "eugenically unfortunate" were identified by the European Catholic Church or "the post Weimar Republic whose name we shall not speak" was by forced segregation and/or making them wear some type of identifying symbol of their "inferiority". Other than the whole Jewish thing, Europe has only had relatively short periods in their recent history where race or ethnicity has been a central issue taken that's needed to be addressed by a democratic government or free society in general. Now, I'd say it's more of permanent societal issue. I guess my point was that unless you have acceptance on some level and provide opportunities for upward mobility then a society will have problems integrating it's immigrant population. | |
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| 08-25-10 05:12pm - 5233 days | #20 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
I think sometimes we SHOULD have a problem assimilating foreign people and ideas. Take muslims for example. Being a muslim is more important to them than their country. They are muslim first. Looking at the example of the Salman Rushdie fatwa, they put out an order to kill him for something he said. I do not want the idea that it is okay killing someone for something they say, being assimilated into my country. This is why I regard them as dangerous and do not want them in my country. It's time we showed a little less understanding and tolerance towards that line of thinking. I consider they are centuries behind civilized behaviour. Their sort of thinking and ideas are so alien to us they are a danger to our people. Lade edit - yes I am aware that Islam is a religion, not a race or people. But the last thing we should be doing is accepting foreign muslims whose ideas are centuries behind civilized thinking. Kill someone for drawing something? I think we need a little less tolerance and a little more condemnation. Edited on Aug 25, 2010, 05:19pm | |
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| 08-25-10 07:34pm - 5233 days | #21 | |
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PinkPanther (0)
Active User Posts: 1,136 Registered: Jan 08, '07 Location: Oakland, CA |
Do Muslims have a monopoly on the kind of deadly narrow-mindedness that you describe, Squirrel? Hardly. The Christian Right in the US - and other countries - and right-wing Jews can be just as insipid. Hell, Pat Robertson was going on about how America deserved 9/11 for turning its back on God right after the event, while there were a lot of Muslims with brains and hearts that were mourning it. You don't hear as much about the despicable attitudes these other faiths promote because they're more promoted by the media and the powers that be in this country, who have a real interest in dominating the Muslim world. | |
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| 08-25-10 08:00pm - 5233 days | #22 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
I agree that there should be some standards for those wishing to emigrate from their home into another country, though obviously I'm not talking about purity tests and 100% assimilation. It's been argued that part of what makes America great (besides the vast quantities of firearms and fast food) is that we are a very multicultural country. It's why there are still remnants of the home country in wherever people have settled. Even most of the first states are full of towns and communities that take their names from places in England. Having said that there should still be a limit to how far one should expect their new home to tolerate their culture. I understand this sounds incredibly arrogant for someone who's lived most of his life in the U.S. and has never had to try and make it in a foreign land but we do have a few standards here, and they are similar for many western countries. Like women driving cars, or not having their clitorises 'circumcised' against their will, or hiding their identities, or making death threats over a cartoon or a book. Speaking of that book, The Satanic Verses, I think that was partly a political thing too, since the subsequent fatwa was issued by Khomeini who was also a political leader. It gets kind of murky since Iran has been a theocracy for more than thirty years and you could interpret their threats and proclamations as both extreme politics and extreme religion. And Iran is likely not even the most conservatively Muslim country in the Middle East; Saudi Arabia probably takes that honor, but they have lots of oil so lets not talk about that.  "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 08-25-10 10:28pm - 5232 days | #23 | |
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hodayathink (0)
Active User Posts: 312 Registered: Mar 27, '09 Location: Illinois |
I was going to go on this long diatribe about this point of view is what saddens me about America today, but it would have done nothing but depress me and start an argument that I'm not entirely sure I want to finish, so I'm gonna keep it short. I've known a decent amount of Muslim people in my life (more than 10, less than 100). And not a single solitary one of them has been anything like what you just described. And not all of them were born in the US, either. To me, saying all Muslims are like Muslim extremists is like saying all Southern Christians are like the Ku Klux Klan. And saying this mosque can't or shouldn't be built is like saying you shouldn't build a Catholic church two blocks away from 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama. | |
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| 08-26-10 12:10am - 5232 days | #24 | |
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slutty (0)
Active User Posts: 475 Registered: Mar 02, '09 Location: Pennsylvania |
Well said hodayathink, I think I would have enjoyed the rant! People that find the mosque offensive to me are just plain ignorant. Muslims are not terrorists, terrorists are terrorists. Sure some terrorists are muslim, but some are also christian (OK City, abortion clinic bombers). Is whatever religion McVeigh is prevented from building a church in Oklahoma City? Also, this issue is much larger than just this one mosque (community center), there are protests at other mosques around the country because Fox News is spreading the ideal that all mosques are training grounds for terrorists. If you disallow this mosque from being built, you are setting a very bad precident. Further, I don't think there should be any standards for emigration. Quotas are okay I guess, but standards are subject to manipulation and subjectivity. If a country truly wants to say that they are free, they should let whoever is next on the list emigrate, regardless of their situation. There most certainly is nothing wrong with integrating parts of another culture into your own, that is the world we live in. The more everyone knows about other parts of the world, the more tolerant people will be towards other lifestyles, religions, etc. and the world will be better off for it. Bunny Lebowski: I'll suck your cock for a thousand dollars. Brandt: Ah hahahahaha! Wonderful woman. We're all, we're all very fond of her. Very free-spirited. | |
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| 08-26-10 12:19am - 5232 days | #25 | |
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slutty (0)
Active User Posts: 475 Registered: Mar 02, '09 Location: Pennsylvania |
Also, what is an acceptable radius for one to build a mosque from ground zero without it being "offensive"? And what is next protesting some guys falafel stand because it is too close? Which of course would be totally unacceptable, as slutty loves himself some falafel... Bunny Lebowski: I'll suck your cock for a thousand dollars. Brandt: Ah hahahahaha! Wonderful woman. We're all, we're all very fond of her. Very free-spirited. | |
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| 08-26-10 06:05am - 5232 days | #26 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
I am hoping there are more muslims around like hodayathink describes. What really settled it for me years ago was the reaction by muslims to the Rushdie fatwa. They were what you would consider to be decent normal muslims in Britain. They were asked about the fatwa on Rushdie, and not one would condemn it or speak against it. Instead they started talking about being understood and seeing it from their side and being a muslim. It doesn't matter how you look at it, killing someone for something they say goes against what we consider to be civilized. That is the difference how I see it. Fundamental nutter Christians are condemned by their fellow countrymen, same goes for Ku Klux Klan. The difference is the muslim people as a whole appear to support killing people for what they say, or drawing their allah god, or stoning someone to death for adultery. It doesn't look like they condemn it like we do as civilized people, rather they wholeheartedly support that sort of behaviour. I hope this is an incorrect view. I would suggest building a mosque within view of Ground Zero is an insult to those who died and their loved ones. For me that would be a good guideline. Next door or on Ground Zero = not acceptable. It's not whether muslims are all terrorists, it is what that mosque represents. It's a kick in the teeth for the dead and their loved ones. It will cause more hurt. They have been through enough. Edited on Aug 26, 2010, 06:14am | |
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| 08-26-10 08:09am - 5232 days | #27 | |
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Denner (0)
Active User Posts: 1,217 Registered: Mar 03, '07 Location: Denmark |
Have to praise The Squirrel - HOW well put here - but again, ok we're both of European origin - so that might make the difference - again... And again: If this thread was placed in Saudi Arabia, Oman, Qatar, Yemen or alike - we all would have had our heads chopped off - no, PU would have been banned (except for the 'royal families') - or at the best we would have a public whipping. Save the free (western)world with all it's problems and general shit - but it's still FREEDOM of speech ect.  "I don't drink anymore - I freeze it, and eat it like a popcicle" | |
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| 08-26-10 08:39am - 5232 days | #28 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
There might be quotas currently in place with the U.S. but I haven't heard of any. The problem is that they would indeed be subject to an enormous amount of political manipulation and protest. Some asshole trying to get re-elected wants to court say an anti-south-of-the-border immigration crowd so he puts limits on South and Central American countries (I don't think any one person could actually do this, it's just a crazy example). Mob rule seems to get quite powerful when it comes to 'debating' immigration issues. The only way I think that quotas could be reasonably fair is to base them on the populations of the home countries, but then this would favor big countries even if only a small percentage of their citizens are emigrating. For example, India has over a billion people so they would be favored second only to China in how many could enter a country. Historically most quotas seem to be based on whatever bigotry and xenophobia is hot at the moment. Even the Irish (quite fair when you're talking about skin color) were subject to a lot of discrimination when coming to the U.S. in the 19th and 20th centuries. "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 08-26-10 12:51pm - 5232 days | #29 | |
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slutty (0)
Active User Posts: 475 Registered: Mar 02, '09 Location: Pennsylvania |
I just don't see how it is an insult TheSquirrel, it is not a victory mosque. It isn't the al queda fuck you america mosque, it is a mosque. I'm sure some non-terrorist muslims probably died in 9-11 as well, and their families might appreciate the mosque. The Klan can hardly be considered a religion, this comparison is pretty invalid. And while a lot of nutty christian fundamentalists blindly follow orders as well, have we ever prevented them from building a church? Isn't it offensive to have a Catholic church near a school where kids were molested? Or should we just consider these actions are the actions of evil outliers, not actions of the religion as a whole. I can't speak to how many muslims in the US agreed with the Rushdie fatwa, as that was when I was 10 - but I would imagine most American Muslims, particularly the African Americans, didn't react with the same fervor. Regardless of how offensive people find it, if they want to build it they can. If the government steps in and prevents it, they violate the constitution, and it would set a horrible NIMBY precedent for mosques being built in America. Bunny Lebowski: I'll suck your cock for a thousand dollars. Brandt: Ah hahahahaha! Wonderful woman. We're all, we're all very fond of her. Very free-spirited. | |
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| 08-26-10 03:14pm - 5232 days | #30 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
I am thinking how the loved ones of the dead may be thinking. Some may find it okay, but if it hurts those who are left I think it is very insensitive. I am distant from what happened, but what I feel is those who had loved ones killed in that tragedy should be the ones to decide. If it causes more pain it should not be allowed on moral grounds. That is just my opinion. I would love the opinions of those connected with those who died to count. I hope on compassionate grounds they are able to have the last word and be able to decide. In many ways it is their place and a memorial/monument for those who died. I would hate to see more misery created for them. I truly hope a number of muslims do not support the Rushdie fatwa. The 9/11 thing was extremists, but if what are considered moderate muslims support the fatwa, that tells us something very profound about muslims and their religion. | |
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| 08-26-10 10:05pm - 5231 days | #31 | |
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slutty (0)
Active User Posts: 475 Registered: Mar 02, '09 Location: Pennsylvania |
I understand the concern, I just don't see any good resolution. There are lots of things that offend lots of people, and unfortunately in order to have a free society you risk offending some of the people some of the time. Bunny Lebowski: I'll suck your cock for a thousand dollars. Brandt: Ah hahahahaha! Wonderful woman. We're all, we're all very fond of her. Very free-spirited. | |
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| 08-27-10 06:05pm - 5231 days | #32 | |
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Drooler (0)
Disabled User Posts: 1,831 Registered: Mar 11, '07 Location: USA |
Well put, Slutty ... Sorry about the "Slutty" part I wanted something new, so I left England for New England. | |
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| 08-27-10 07:26pm - 5231 days | #33 | |
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mbaya (0)
Suspended  Posts: 891 Registered: Jul 07, '08 Location: new jersey |
In the course of my job I meet many Muslims. The only fanaticism that I see on a regular basis is an inordinate sensitivity towards what they perceive as insults to their religion. The current debate fosters that mistrust,and the terrorists get recruiting ads. Most mainstream non terrorist Mulsims already feel uncomfortable with the minority status they have in non Muslim countries. Something essential about freedom of religion is that the majority must protect the rights of religious minorities. If some Americans are offended by a mosque, as far as I am concerned that is overreacting and stereotyping. Minority rights must be protected, even of, and especially of, those we don't feel are like us. The reason we have rights is not for those we like and agree with, but for those we disagree with. We are all minorities in some way, and we all can find something that is offensive if we are objectively honest. I don't like religious fanatics or even fundamentalists, but we have to let them speak and preach. I find much of the smug certainty as to what they feel is the only correct way to live to be completely offensive. However, I would never dream of taking away their abilities to speak or build a church anywhere they want. Many evil acts have taken place in the name of religion, but do we worry where the followers of any religion build their places of worship? In the past followers of Catholicism burned non believers at the stake during the Inquisition. Thoroughly offensive, but yet churches are built near synagogues. Edited on Aug 27, 2010, 07:32pm | |
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| 08-28-10 09:05am - 5230 days | #34 | |
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PinkPanther (0)
Active User Posts: 1,136 Registered: Jan 08, '07 Location: Oakland, CA |
To take this thread into what might be dangerously-controversial territory, I have to say that the fact that the Catholic Church is considered an acceptable institution despite having run a global Child Molestation ring for RECENT decades proves just how absurd this whole Muslim Exceptionalism point is. Religion is the great excuse. You can do ANYTHING and if you do it with the cover of being a cleric of a major religion, you can scream "Religious Freedom" or "You're just being anti-religion" when anybody tries to demand a modicum of normally accepted behaviour. Are there Muslim clerics who are straight-out thugs and criminals? Abso-fucking-lutely. Are there large sections of the Catholic Church that should be prosecuted under conspiracy charges for their part in having run and/or protected a global Child Molestation ring? Abso-fucking-lutely. Is there a huge section of Jewish clerics that have used mythology and made-up history and deliberately covered up real history in order to justify despicable acts and attitudes against Palestinians? Abso-fucking-lutely. You can be raised a Baptist from a whole generations-long line of Baptists, convert to Judaism tomorrow and have the "right of return" to Israel while Palestinians with true lineage to the land have to rights to even breathe. Are there Protestant clergy that promote moron-ism in every way, shape, and form in order to have the most sheep-like followers they can get in order to manipulate the stupid bastards for their own political and economic interests with NO interest in the future of humanity or the planet? Abso-fucking-lutely. You can find real morality and good deeds done by religious leaders, but it's sure covered over by a whole lot of shit. | |
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| 08-28-10 09:08am - 5230 days | #35 | |
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Capn (0)
Active User  Posts: 1,740 Registered: Sep 05, '09 Location: Near the Beer! |
Nice rant, PP BTW I do agree. Cap'n.  Admiral of the PU Hindenburg. 2009 PU AwardHilarious Post of the Year 2010 PU Award ( I would have preferred it to be Helpful Post of the Year for Guys who Hate 'Retail Therapy' ) :0/ Sanity is in the eye of the Beholder! | |
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| 08-28-10 09:49am - 5230 days | #36 | |
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Monahan (0)
Active User  Posts: 348 Registered: Jan 17, '07 Location: SF Valley, CA |
I really like Greg Gutfeld's idea of setting up a gay bar next door to the Islamic Cultural Center to see how tolerant they will be in contrast to the significant amount of support the Islamic Center is getting. | |
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| 08-28-10 10:01am - 5230 days | #37 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
LOL that is a GREAT idea. It also brings me back to some of the points made in this thread. Yes, tons of atrocities have been committed in the name of religion, and some have been covered up in the name of religion. In the modern world the people protest against that behaviour and consider it disgusting and uncivilized. The difference with muslims is, their people seem to wholeheartedly support those atrocities. That is why I brought up the Salman Rushdie thing. Yes muslims seem quiet and civilized. Ask them about the Salman Rushdie fatwa or kiling someone for drawing a cartoon of their allah. This is the worrying thing. Their reaction to what they see as an insult to their religion is intolerant, dangerous, and disturbing. It is indeed like the religious dark ages where people were burnt and tortured. I don't believe America or Britain are free countries. A lot of things are censored in the name of decency and fear of causing offense. I really feel for those people who are trying to get over 9/11 and then have a mosque built on, or next door to, their loved ones memorial. It is a real kick in the guts for them. But yes, it probably will happen. Some will not be hurt by it, but some will. I find it brutal and disgusting. I really feel sorry for those people. Edited on Aug 28, 2010, 11:31am | |
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| 08-28-10 12:15pm - 5230 days | #38 | |
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
Excellent point, PinkPanther! The greatest story ever told and so many people fall for it! As the late George Carlin put it so eloquently, "They made the fucking shit up." I sure wish I had a religious excuse for my love of porn. I guess it's pretty nice to have a belief that's nearly unquestionable in it's authenticity once you slap the religion label on it because it gives you a ton of room to get away with shit. Hmm, how does the Church of Latter Day Perverts sound? "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | |
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| 08-28-10 12:53pm - 5230 days | #39 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
Yeah I completely agree with that. | |
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| 08-28-10 04:03pm - 5230 days | #40 | |
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mbaya (0)
Suspended Posts: 891 Registered: Jul 07, '08 Location: new jersey |
PP there is a religious argument in favor of porn. In the Bible it says be fruiful and multiply. If porn is used to get in the mood for sex, show new ideas and positions, etc. relighions should embrace it. Call me crazy, but I don't see a conflict between our natural selves who like sex and the use of porn. Where do some people get the idea that religion frowns on sex? I know it says that adultery is bad, but what is the problem with sex itself? If God made us to enjoy sex, what problem is there? The problem is in how people twist the message. | |
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| 08-28-10 11:12pm - 5229 days | #41 | |
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hodayathink (0)
Active User Posts: 312 Registered: Mar 27, '09 Location: Illinois |
I don't mean to be mean or anything, but it seems like your opinion of Muslims is based on what you've seen on television or read in newspapers. Have you actually met any Muslim people that have acted this way around you? If there's one thing that the media seems to be absolutely great at, it's telling half of the truth and not all of it. | |
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| 08-29-10 06:31am - 5229 days | #42 | |
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Drooler (0)
Disabled User Posts: 1,831 Registered: Mar 11, '07 Location: USA |
Fornication is bad! Don't you all know that? There are still statutes in some states that make it a crime, sex between two unmarried people or at least one who is and other not. Can't recall if it's adultery depending on the gender of the married one, but I think it's the male. Fornication is fun! That's why we do it! And watch other people do it. Trouble is, everyone is so busy! So I propose a small step towards a solution: National Fornication Day. I wanted something new, so I left England for New England. | |
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| 08-29-10 09:04am - 5229 days | #43 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
Hodoyathink - Yes I have met them. Have even been to school with a few, some years ago. They always seem very quiet, very rational, until they start talking about things like insults to their religion. Then it's justified homicide. Maybe they are not all like that. The worrying thing is, some try to avoid questions about what we would consider uncivilized behaviour. They then start to talk about understanding their religion. Try to get them to disagre or condemn murder and they wont. I agree media is very good at distorting the truth. So I am hoping not every single muslim agrees with the Rushdie fatwa or killing a cartoonist who draws allah. I don't think you are mean. You should be asking these sort of questions. I don't mind at all. I know members here are saying what they believe and I respect them for that. They are not trying to stir up trouble. I really really hope that their view which is more optimistic than mine, is closer to the truth. Edited on Aug 29, 2010, 09:08am | |
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| 08-29-10 12:09pm - 5229 days | #44 | ||
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turboshaft (0)
Active User Posts: 1,958 Registered: Apr 01, '08 |
That's true in my state; sex between two people who are not married is a crime. We also define married as being exclusively between a man and a woman, which I believe technically outlaws homosexuality and bisexuality, or at least the sexual practices of them. I'm not totally sure what the crime is if only one of them is married but I think the law only allows sex between the marital partners (man and woman, perverts!). If you ask me, when laws on the books (even if they're unenforced) are this stupid it's hard to take many of the other ones so seriously. I mean don't people have something better to worry about then what consenting adults are doing with their naughty parts?
I thought that's what Valentine's Day was for!  "It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hardcore Commie works." - Gen. Jack D. Rippper, Dr. Stranglove | ||
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| 08-29-10 12:53pm - 5229 days | #45 | |
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Monahan (0)
Active User Posts: 348 Registered: Jan 17, '07 Location: SF Valley, CA |
Actually our state is now called Californicator after a review of how our gummint has continued to fuck up, fuck us and have been asked to go fuck themselves. | |
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| 09-04-10 06:37am - 5223 days | #46 | |
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Tree Rodent (0)
Active User Posts: 708 Registered: Oct 29, '08 Location: UK |
This hit the British news again last night. More than half New Yorkers are against the mosque. They had one man whose son had been killed. He said that when it all happened, Iraq, Iran. the middle east, all of the muslim world were cheering, muslims killed his son, so they shouldn't have a mosque at Ground Zero. They had an alternative view from a muslim who had lost a muslim relation too. Yes, muslims were also killed. My view is with the majority of New Yorkers. Ground Zero is a monument to the dead who were killed by muslims. That doesn't mean all muslims supported what happened but I would love to see Ground Zero considered a monumnet to those who died, with their loved ones being made custodians of the area. They should have the last say. There appeared to be very strong feelings against the mosque. | |
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| 09-05-10 01:26am - 5222 days | #47 | |
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slutty (0)
Active User Posts: 475 Registered: Mar 02, '09 Location: Pennsylvania |
Hey TheSquirrel, good points, but what is being built at ground zero is not only monument, it will in the end be a large building most likely filled with financial institutions - with a small portion being devoted to a memorial. If this ground is so sacred, they shouldn't build anything there, ever. The reality is that it is private land and it is not at Ground Zero. I think the source of the debate is largely political - try to stir up debate and ruffle some feathers with the hopes of making the Democratic party look stupid. There is already a mosque not that much further away from Ground Zero than this one being built, should they tear that one down? And not to sound harsh, but the desire of many is not always the path that should be followed. If everyone in a neighborhood doesn't want a Muslim family to move in, should they be allowed to discriminate? It is a slippery slope to start allowing people to dictate what can or can't be done on private land, and is certainly Un-American to use a Glenn Beckish term. Bunny Lebowski: I'll suck your cock for a thousand dollars. Brandt: Ah hahahahaha! Wonderful woman. We're all, we're all very fond of her. Very free-spirited. Edited on Sep 05, 2010, 01:35am | |
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| 09-05-10 08:40am - 5222 days | #48 | |
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Monahan (0)
Active User Posts: 348 Registered: Jan 17, '07 Location: SF Valley, CA |
You are incorrectly presupposing that the "neighborhood" can do anything at all about the 20 storey Islamic Cultural Center (which includes a small mosque). The permits have been issued and there's absolutely nothing anyone, other than the sponsors, can do about it. Approximately 1/2 of the US Islamic community opposes the concept but, again, they have no ability to do anything other than express their opinion. So I guess I don't understand your last sentence. No one can dictate what can be done on private land other than the NYC Planning Commission that has already approved the plan. Are you saying that what the Planning Commission did is Un-American? | |
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| 09-06-10 12:04am - 5221 days | #49 | |
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hodayathink (0)
Active User Posts: 312 Registered: Mar 27, '09 Location: Illinois |
No, I think he's agreeing with you. He's saying that what some politicians have been proposing to do (which is to find legislative loopholes to allow them to stop the building) is "unAmerican". And unfortunately, at this point I think the thing probably isn't going to get built because I don't see how they're going to be able to get the funding to build it because of all the controversy. And my slippery slope argument would go along the lines of: Okay, so two blocks away is too close. Then what's the line? 3 blocks? 4? The entirety of lower Manhattan? How close is too close, and how are you going to arbitrarily draw that line. Oh, and if Manhattan is anything like downtown Chicago (which I think it is), then 20 stories isn't all that visible. Especially depending on the other buildings around it. | |
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| 09-06-10 12:12am - 5221 days | #50 | |
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graymane (0)
Suspended  Posts: 1,411 Registered: Feb 20, '10 Location: Virginia |
If Denner is mostly citing the noise factor here , My vote would be unequivocally against Muslem or any other Religious order calling for prayer over gigantic loudspeakers several time a day/week... This is patently unacceptable and perpetrators should be cited and prosecuted to the very limit the law allows. It's also a clear case of people completely devoid of conscience and concern for the well-being of anybody but themselves. NOT ON MY BLOCK, BRETHERN! | |
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